Modern Mongolia - TL Research Thread

POST INDEPENDENCE MONGOLIAN (ALT)-HISTORY THREAD


250px-Emblem_of_Mongolia_%281911%E2%80%9324%29.svg.png



I'm creating this thread as a compilation of information, sources, research and timelines for Post Independence and Late Qing Era Mongolia based alternate histories. This is a super niche topic with barely any English academic research so my goal with this thread is to create the closest thing we can get to a reliable and exhaustive list of sources and collection of information for a timeline I'm working on, and any future TL's based on the era. If anyone has any timelines related to the era, or information regarding it, it'd be great if you post it here, thanks!
 
A good source is Reins of Liberation: An Entangled History of Mongolian Independence, Chinese Territoriality and Great Power Hegemony, 1911-1950 by Xiaoyuan Liu (Stanford University Press).
 
Here's a QBAM map I've made of the divisions of Mongolia during the 1910s, the borders are based on a mix of Ox Space's Inner Mongolia banners map, Xasper H.'s Bogd Khanate map and DaniCBP's 1910 world map.

untitled - 2024-04-19T150941.907.png
 
@Lils <3 what is the TL you're working on about?
Personally, I'm considering working on a TL where the Bogd Khanate wins the war to liberate Inner Mongolia, but this thread is for any Mongolian history post 1900 so I might end up using it for something else. Also hoping it will inspire other people to consider Mongolian centred timelines or at least how other timelines might affect Mongolia!
 
Personally, I'm considering working on a TL where the Bogd Khanate wins the war to liberate Inner Mongolia, but this thread is for any Mongolian history post 1900 so I might end up using it for something else. Also hoping it will inspire other people to consider Mongolian centred timelines or at least how other timelines might affect Mongolia!
Very cool. Late 19th/20th century Mongolia is actually super-interesting with a lot of potential that goes unnoticed (at least there's plenty of Mongol content in the pre-1900 forum, even if its mostly just Kublai Khan slapping the everliving sh*t out of Japan.
I feel like a really cool idea for a TL would be Mongolia getting annexed by the USSR like they requested (maybe in a KMT victory scenario) and a giant Mongol SSR being made out of Outer Mongolia, ideally Inner Mongolia, Buryatia and Zabaykalsky Krai.

Really looking forward to the Bogd Khanate story. Would be cool if you could incorporate some shenanigans with the Alash Orda and the Tibetans in Qinghai.
 
Really looking forward to the Bogd Khanate story. Would be cool if you could incorporate some shenanigans with the Alash Orda and the Tibetans in Qinghai.
The Upper Mongols of Qinghai are 100% the most underrated historically! I'm considering throwing in some Ja Lama shenanigans as, I believe he was down in the Tibet area for a while after he fled from Mongolia
 
EXTREMELY interesting website archived on the wayback machine, it's got a lot of interesting historical details and lays out a significant amount of Mongolian history, all with the framing device of Ja Lama and the writers attempts to find out more about him. I'd highly recommend anyone interested in Mongolian history and specifically Ja Lama, read this!
 
EXTREMELY interesting website archived on the wayback machine, it's got a lot of interesting historical details and lays out a significant amount of Mongolian history, all with the framing device of Ja Lama and the writers attempts to find out more about him. I'd highly recommend anyone interested in Mongolian history and specifically Ja Lama, read this!
That image on the site would make an excellent cover art for a mixtape
 
question for any other Mongolian history enthusiasts!
If, somehow, the Mongolian government managed to successfully capture Inner Mongolia in 1914-15, what would the results be on government stability and regional geopolitics?
I'd reckon some kind of coup or civil unrest would be imminent from reformers and nobles primarily in Eastern Inner Mongolia, additionally, considering neither Japan nor Russia would be very happy about the expansion, I'd suspect they'd play some role in either propping up one side, or destabilising the state. Thoughts?
 
question for any other Mongolian history enthusiasts!
If, somehow, the Mongolian government managed to successfully capture Inner Mongolia in 1914-15, what would the results be on government stability and regional geopolitics?
I'd reckon some kind of coup or civil unrest would be imminent from reformers and nobles primarily in Eastern Inner Mongolia, additionally, considering neither Japan nor Russia would be very happy about the expansion, I'd suspect they'd play some role in either propping up one side, or destabilising the state. Thoughts?
I think that a big problem to deal with here is how the Mongolian governent captures the territory without foreign backing. In 1914 Yuan Shikai has given himself sweeping executive powers and is starting to consider crowning himself Emperor. Being in Beijing, so close to Inner Mongolia, AND wanting to legitimise himself as a potential monarch, I would have to think that he would muster forces and march against the Mongols, even if that weakens his grip on southern china (have to beat the invader before the internal rivals to get that legitimacy).

Edit: will engage with the internal Mongol politics angle when I'm home in front of the laptop.
 
If, somehow, the Mongolian government managed to successfully capture Inner Mongolia in 1914-15, what would the results be on government stability and regional geopolitics?
Just as @Hrvatskiwi said China is stable enough in 1914-1915, it would have to wait until after 1916 to be able to do so however regional Chinese warlords are still much more powerful than Mongolia meaning that without foreign backing it would be kind of impossible, during WW1 and the Russian Civil War it would be kind of difficult to get this foreign backing; already after getting invaded by the USSR its chances to get Greater Mongolia are slim, after Stalin takes over, Mongolia has no chance at getting Outer Mongolia since Stalin won't back any of its expansionist policies (both because he already supporting the KMT/CCP alliance and because he is very cautious).
To get the backing of Russia/USSR you either have to make another Bolshevik rise to power and support the expansion of communism (however this leader could also decide to annex Mongolia since he wouldn't care as much about Chinese reaction as Stalin did) or having the Whites win the RCW and support Mongolia in their expansionist policies to have more influence over China and allying itself with the Zhili Clique against the Anhui one.
I'd reckon some kind of coup or civil unrest would be imminent from reformers and nobles primarily in Eastern Inner Mongolia, additionally, considering neither Japan nor Russia would be very happy about the expansion, I'd suspect they'd play some role in either propping up one side, or destabilising the state. Thoughts?
It seems to be that the Mongolian government was quite monarchic at the time and the nobility is weakened due to Chinese collapse and if they are opposed to the new government they would oppose their invasion meaning a convenient way of getting rid of them.
Russia would be Mongolia's main supporter since they are its puppet while Japan would want to get rid of Mongolia but not more than with other Cliques so they would just support the ones they did IOTL.
 
I think the biggest problem is definitely foreign aid, and the power of the Inner Mongolian nobility, not military strength of the Mongolians. In OTL the Mongolian invasion of Inner Mongolia was actually shockingly successful despite being outnumbered and outgunned. The problem was, the nobility were mostly loyal to the Qing, and in Eastern Inner Mongolia, they were relatively loyal to the RoC, and none of the nobles really approved of Outer Mongolia's government, then, because Russia didn't endorse of the invasion, they refused to supply the Mongolians, which put all responsibility for food and supplies on the local Inner Mongolian volunteer troops and the Mongolian government. As far as I understand, the problems were mostly the financial issues of lack of international support bogging down the invasion and causing local volunteers and civilians to loose confidence, as well as the nobles being brutally repressed by the Bogd Khan's government.
wait until after 1916 to be able to do so
Problem with a post 1915 invasion is that the Mongolian government were sorta forced to renounce Pan Mongolism after the Kyakhta Treaty, which, itself isn't that serious because of both China and Mongolia mostly ingoring the treaty when Russia was no longer in the picture, but because the Pan Mongolists lost support in government, for example, Bavuujav, who defected to join the Qing Royalists and became a bandit.
after getting invaded by the USSR its chances to get Greater Mongolia are slim
Pretty much, although, important to note, "invasion" isn't the term I'd use for the soviet intervention as it was more of a military support operation called for by Mongolian socialists to free them from the Chinese and White Russian occupiers. Also, there were some notable attempts at Inner Mongolian independence post 1924 which should probably be mentioned, the left wing faction of the Inner Mongolian People's Revolutionary Party, through the Comintern renounced it and the Mongolian government arrested them after, did organise some rebellions in Hulunbuir with promised, though never delivered, Comintern support.
Whites win the RCW and support Mongolia in their expansionist policies
The only White's who really cared about Mongolian expansion, that I'm aware of, only did so in an attempt to win over Mongolians as a puppet or colony, and in the process of that, people like Sternberg did horrific damage to the nation and its people.
quite monarchic at the time and the nobility is weakened due to Chinese collapse and if they are opposed to the new government they would oppose their invasion meaning a convenient way of getting rid of them
Well, the Mongolian government did try this during the invasion, arresting nobles, forcing them to submit under duress and appointing alternate nobles who would support them, this didn't really work, as demonstrated by the fact the invasion failed. The problem is forcing the nobles to submit is that, if the invasion succeeded, they just gained dozens more nobles, and every spot of land in the nation, other than a couple square miles of land is owned by nobles. The theocracy was also extremely incompetent and levied extremely high taxes against the people and nobles which, as you can guess, no one liked.
 
I think the biggest problem is definitely foreign aid, and the power of the Inner Mongolian nobility, not military strength of the Mongolians. In OTL the Mongolian invasion of Inner Mongolia was actually shockingly successful despite being outnumbered and outgunned. The problem was, the nobility were mostly loyal to the Qing, and in Eastern Inner Mongolia, they were relatively loyal to the RoC, and none of the nobles really approved of Outer Mongolia's government, then, because Russia didn't endorse of the invasion, they refused to supply the Mongolians, which put all responsibility for food and supplies on the local Inner Mongolian volunteer troops and the Mongolian government. As far as I understand, the problems were mostly the financial issues of lack of international support bogging down the invasion and causing local volunteers and civilians to loose confidence, as well as the nobles being brutally repressed by the Bogd Khan's government.
Seeing this it seems that Mongolia was a lot closer to achieving their goals than I previously thought, is support from the Russian government enough to succeed (and a little bit of luck)?
Problem with a post 1915 invasion is that the Mongolian government were sorta forced to renounce Pan Mongolism after the Kyakhta Treaty, which, itself isn't that serious because of both China and Mongolia mostly ingoring the treaty when Russia was no longer in the picture, but because the Pan Mongolists lost support in government, for example, Bavuujav, who defected to join the Qing Royalists and became a bandit.
You'll have to change that to get Greater Mongolia.
Pretty much, although, important to note, "invasion" isn't the term I'd use for the soviet intervention as it was more of a military support operation called for by Mongolian socialists to free them from the Chinese and White Russian occupiers. Also, there were some notable attempts at Inner Mongolian independence post 1924 which should probably be mentioned, the left wing faction of the Inner Mongolian People's Revolutionary Party, through the Comintern renounced it and the Mongolian government arrested them after, did organise some rebellions in Hulunbuir with promised, though never delivered, Comintern support.
Once Mongolia is puppeted by the USSR they are entirely dependent on the Soviet government's wishes to try to create Greater Mongolia and Stalin is known to not be the most expansionist ruler, you have to replace him with someone more pro-communist expansion to have a chance of it succeeding.
The only White's who really cared about Mongolian expansion, that I'm aware of, only did so in an attempt to win over Mongolians as a puppet or colony, and in the process of that, people like Sternberg did horrific damage to the nation and its people.
The Whites could try to support a united Mongolia to expand their influence in China, the chances aren't great but neither are they with the Reds.
Well, the Mongolian government did try this during the invasion, arresting nobles, forcing them to submit under duress and appointing alternate nobles who would support them, this didn't really work, as demonstrated by the fact the invasion failed. The problem is forcing the nobles to submit is that, if the invasion succeeded, they just gained dozens more nobles, and every spot of land in the nation, other than a couple square miles of land is owned by nobles. The theocracy was also extremely incompetent and levied extremely high taxes against the people and nobles which, as you can guess, no one liked.
The task is never going to be easy.
 
Yeah definitely not an easy task. From what I've read I've got the impression that the reason the Inner Mongols were loyal to the Qing is that the early expansion of the Manchus led to an integration of the Korchin, Chahar and Ordos Mongols into the Qing governing body. This included widespread intermarriage between Mongol and Manchu noble houses, incorporation into the pageantry of state through the legacy of Genghis Khan (the Manchus would present themselves as emperors to the Chinese and Khagans to the peoples of the Steppe).

I wonder if it would be possible to get post-revolution Chinese governments to be more hostile of the Inner Mongols in the same way they were to the Manchu? I know quite a few Chinese people from Dongbei/Manchuria who have anecdotes of Manchu ancestors hiding their Manchuness to prevent reprisals in the Qing collapse period. Such a lack of safety would leave the Inner Mongols likely to support the pan-Mongolists in Outer Mongolia. May not be their first choice but its better than being lynched.
I don't know much about the state of the reformist vs traditionalist wings of the Mongol nobility in Inner or Outer Mongolia, so I don't think I can contribute anything that you don't already know, Lils.

This is also real hard to focus thinking towards with so many different time periods (pre-communist, post-communist). Maybe you can give a more narrow window that we can think about?
 
I wonder if it would be possible to get post-revolution Chinese governments to be more hostile of the Inner Mongols
Yeah this was what I was thinking, in OTL the Republic of China agreed, not only to keep titles in place and keep the Mongolian banners under their nobility, but they promoted loyal Mongolian nobles up a rank. This was why many Mongolian nobles switched their allegiance over to the Republic of China after the Qing were dissolved. If the Chinese government was less pragmatic, more idealistic and anti-Mongolian, the nobles would likely be divided between Qing Royalism and Pan Mongolism and the Bogd Khanate would fair much better fighting the hated Manchu imperialists than the Chinese with promises of protection from Bolshevism and growth both in noble rank and in economy.
more narrow window that we can think about?
For this TL specifically, liberation of Inner Mongolia needs to occur in the 1910s by the Bogd Khanate, but ponderings on a socialist Greater Mongolia are also welcome ofc. The main goal here is to figure out, what might make the Bogd Khanate more successful in the war of 1912-1916, and discuss the most likely/most interesting results of it.
 
The best solution I can think of for mongolia expanding into inner mongolia is have a mix of an earlier warlord period, plus maybe some sort of propped up white russian force in the far east that could support them in the interest of trying to get an ally in the region.
 
Yeah this was what I was thinking, in OTL the Republic of China agreed, not only to keep titles in place and keep the Mongolian banners under their nobility, but they promoted loyal Mongolian nobles up a rank. This was why many Mongolian nobles switched their allegiance over to the Republic of China after the Qing were dissolved. If the Chinese government was less pragmatic, more idealistic and anti-Mongolian, the nobles would likely be divided between Qing Royalism and Pan Mongolism and the Bogd Khanate would fair much better fighting the hated Manchu imperialists than the Chinese with promises of protection from Bolshevism and growth both in noble rank and in economy.
Okay so what about we contrive a scenario where Sun Yat-sen dies in one of the failed early rebellions of the Tongmenghui, and is replaced by someone else, like maybe Zhang Binglin? Or maybe the Guangfuhui take the mantle of anti-Qing resistance away from the Tongmenghui? It seems like the Guangfuhui were much more "Han chauvinist" than Sun Yat-sen and his supporters. That way the anti-Qing Chinese government is more likely to be vociferously anti-Mongol along with anti-Manchu? But I might be misreading the nature of these movements, I'm by no means an expert on early 20th century Chinese politics.
 
The best solution I can think of for mongolia expanding into inner mongolia is have a mix of an earlier warlord period, plus maybe some sort of propped up white russian force in the far east that could support them in the interest of trying to get an ally in the region.
Yeah, only real problem is the Whites are almost inevitably more of a hindrance than a help, even if generals like Sternberg, Rezukhin and Semyonov, on a surface level supported Pan Mongolism, if any of them gain any level of power in the Mongolian government, something they would almost certainly want, then they'll begin forging their own radically Russian, colonial and anti-Bolshevik clique, something that would, if the white Russians remain, act like a more racist version of the apparatchiks in the MPRP and also likely invoke the rage of the Bolsheviks from both Russia and within.
 
Top