Greek Hegemony in Asia Minor: A possibility?

[Tenhigh]

I've had this scenario in mind for a while, and I'd like to run it by the minds of AH for feasibility...

What if King Alexander of Greece survived his attack by monkeys, and Mustafa Kemal was killed by artillery at Gallipoli?

Without a central Turkish figure to rally around, and with the Greeks fully supported by the British and the French due to a monarchy that they support, I can believe in the creation of a Greek state in Asia minor and in the interests of keeping Italy out of Asia Minor, letting Greece control a large amount of Asia Minor... (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_sevres)

With all of this, could Greece be a minor power in WW2, so that the outcome of the Mediterranean Theater might be different in WW2?

Any thoughts would be appreciated, as would be any sources aplicable

 

[Cook]

What if King Alexander of Greece survived his attack by monkeys...

Not something you hear every day.

 

[Devolved]

I've had this scenario in mind for a while, and I'd like to run it by the minds of AH for feasibility...

What if King Alexander of Greece survived his attack by monkeys, and Mustafa Kemal was killed by artillery at Gallipoli?

Without a central Turkish figure to rally around, and with the Greeks fully supported by the British and the French due to a monarchy that they support, I can believe in the creation of a Greek state in Asia minor and in the interests of keeping Italy out of Asia Minor, letting Greece control a large amount of Asia Minor... (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_sevres)

With all of this, could Greece be a minor power in WW2, so that the outcome of the Mediterranean Theater might be different in WW2?

Any thoughts would be appreciated, as would be any sources aplicable

I had forgotten about the monkeys. You have your POD there.

 

[Grey Wolf]

I always get confused about how you can change history in say 1920 and yet still automatically have a World War 2 as per OTL despite what you've done...

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

 

[Zimmerwald1915]

Not something you hear every day.

Speak for yourself.

Also, the scenario's not terribly likely. Kemal's charisma notwithstanding, the Turkish nationalist movement was not built in a day, and there were other leaders floating about. Avoid the Great Divide in Greek politics (which existed before Alexander), give the Turks something other than minor nationalities trying to split off to deal with, and maybe the scenario's got a chance.

 

[yourworstnightmare]

Greece won't be able to pull it of without ethnic cleansing, and that's never a nice thing. Also, this mean AHP will revive the Ottoman Empire and then you're in trouble.

 

[wolf_brother]

I always get confused about how you can change history in say 1920 and yet still automatically have a World War 2 as per OTL despite what you've done...

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

Its just one of those things you have to have in AH, because its simply too hard to imagine a world without such a massive and important historical event In just Post-1900 you have to have WWI, Russian Communist Revolution (successful or not, there has to be an attempt), Great Depression, WWII, Cold War, and 9/11.

 

[Paladin]

I have to admit though, I still want to see a TL where Alexander avoids the monkey attack. Just because the POD is so bizarre. (I've also heard that doing so would actually *avoid* the Greco-Turkish war and all the miseries it entailed.

 

[Grimm Reaper]

Giving Greece Istanbul and not only the area of Asia Minor around Smyrna but the entire region considered for Italy would certainly make a difference.

After the ethnic cleansing of millions of Turks the remaining Turkish state will invariably throw in with the Axis while Greece collapses much earlier with so much of the army trapped on the new border with Turkey.

The best case scenario after this would be Hitler giving all the territory held by Greece back to Turkey, the Turks certainly expelling all Greeks from their new territory, following which the British accept humilation and make massive concessions to the Turks, starting with anything on the map assigned to France or Great Britain but not seized OTL, while confirming the Greek losses and saying 'vaya con dios' to any Armenian state.

In the worst case scenario Hitler's concessions convince Turkey to join the Axis and Hitler, seeing the chance to avoid a multiple front war and no longer need to fear US involvment, delays Barbarossa one year, crushing the British in the Middle East and probably bringing Churchill down. With a peace treaty signed by Halifax the USSR has no allies and a new front with the Turks...

 

[von Adler]

I was working on a TL where Constantine abdicated in the fight with Venizelos 1915 and the Greeks joined the entente in autumn 1915, taking southern Albania and fighting the Bulgarians and Austrians for the rest of the war. The Serb army retreated to Greece and was rebuilt, fighting with them.

In the end, the Greeks get Bulgarian Thrace, Smyrna, Turkish Thrace minus the straights and Nicea.

When the Turkish nationalists reject the Treaty of Sevres, the Greeks attack - with the added bonus that Wangel's whites have fled with what remains of the Russian Black Sea Navy to Constantinople. They coup the local government and join the Greeks fighting the Turks.

This gives the Greeks more support, more resources and some population to settle in the parts of Asian Turkey they capture in the war.

 

[Markus]

I was working on a TL where ...

Did it involve a naval battle? *hint, hint*

With regard to the OP. The "greek"-territorries on the mainland were described as indefensible and isolated from their traditional markets. Going after the last european bits of Turkey and Constantinopole would have made more sense.

 

[Grimm Reaper]

Nothing is going to give the Greeks enough population to hold a large slice of Asia Minor barring genocide for the Turkish population and just seizing Istanbul alone means millions of Turks are murdered or ethnically cleansed.

An expanded Asia Minor and European Turkey including Istanbul means close to ten million Turks ethnically cleansed or worse. Some things will not be forgotten or forgiven.

 

[Ice-Titan]

Could the Greeks control Asia minor through economic domination? If they just held a small strip of coast line; surely they can have hegemony that way? If they can survive; but hey they survived the Persian Empire. All things are possible, if not unlikely.

 

[Don Grey]

It had been a while since turkey had been carved up in a manner resulting in genocide i had begun too miss it. Though i do wonder why such a tl that has been done to "DEATH" keeps on poping up. Maybe its the name. Turkey should change its name.

As for your question. Mustafa kemal dieing will not stop the military from kicking the greeks out.There al lots of commanders capable of performing this simple task. There in a bad position . Any thing coming from the anatolian platue has an advantage against anything on the western coast. Meaning greek territories cant be defended as much as some would like them to be.

Another point is land mass and population. The greek military cant hold down such a large mountinous area which has a greater pop then greece total. The only reason greeks invaded was because the army was disbanded by victorious real powers. The greeks lost to a less then sensational military force to say the least. Since the pop was much higher then greece the greeks new it couldnt be held. So as a stratigic policie they resorted to scortch earth tactics and mass ethnic cleansing such as; posioning wells, cutting down olive trees, killing live stock, burning farm land, crops and also just general sloughter of civilians plus some good old fashion raping and pillaging. The problams there was too many to kill and large portians ran to get weapons and help to come back. And the greeks still failed spectaculary.

Supply problams. The greeks new they had to push them back as far as they could to finish them off. Because the areas they wanted couldnt be defended. So they over stretched what meager supplies they already had. Plus if i remember correctly the royal navy was carring some of the greek troops and supplies across the aegean sea.So they werent even doing it all on there own.

Diplomacy. Greece's sponsor britain was already getting tired of the stories of atrocities comming in. So i dont know if they could count on britian for much longer.

So greece failes and on all accounts. The thing i dont understand is why oh why are people constantly insisting on this ludicrise megela idea. Its like tls of nazi victory its impossible with out ASB and handwavium (which deffeats the purpos of a good what if) help plus why are people constantly creating a scenario were millions of people will be exterminated.

 

[Don Grey]

Could the Greeks control Asia minor through economic domination? If they just held a small strip of coast line; surely they can have hegemony that way? If they can survive; but hey they survived the Persian Empire. All things are possible, if not unlikely.

What economy? No they cant have it that way because the coastal strip is still majority muslim plus they will just be kicked out of there too.

What do the persians example have to do with anything it happend in way back in BC plus i had ice-cream yesterday if that helps you understand.

 

[mrmandias]

by . . . monkeys?

 

[Zajir]

What would happen if the Greeks abandoned all territory in Asia Minor, but instead fortified Eastern Thrace, they wouldn't Constantinople/Istanbul which would probably be made an international mandate, but what else?

 

[Don Grey]

What would happen if the Greeks abandoned all territory in Asia Minor, but instead fortified Eastern Thrace, they wouldn't Constantinople/Istanbul which would probably be made an international mandate, but what else?

How? The british wanted to do that but it didnt happen.

 

[Van555]

I Have with don grey here, Greece really can't get the Megali idea in the 20th century, The turks are two strong. Even if they succed it will be a abominable amount of genocide.

 

[Xen]

Greece has two major problems here
1 - A Revanchist Turkey, which means the Greeks need a powerful ally, Great Britain, France or the United States.

2 - In order for Greece to stand alone they need an army of men scoring around the clock to sure up the numbers. I'm willing to do my part but I'm not Greek, nor was I alive back then...