Discussion: Most Successful US Space Program Possible

This is a build off of the Apollo 1 thread I had started earlier today, but this one is dedicated to its intended purpose; what sort of PODs would we require, going forward from 1958, that would allow for the development of a grandiose American Space Program (i.e. the aim being to enact the entirety of the Apollo Applications Program).

I realize that that might be a bit of a tall order, and as I mentioned in the previous thread, my knowledge is relatively superficial despite it being an area of my interest.

Still, I'm hoping we can get to that level at least, without the work of ASBs. If not, something relatively close to it.
 
No Vietnam. Fewer to no NASA disasters. Continuation of the Soviet competitiveness in space ventures. Retardation of technological development to make manned exploration more necessary and manned habitation of satellites and other assets that were automated necessary. All of those or an assortment of those.

I've always been a fan of an idea of slower and steadier. Before "We choose to go to the Moon" the idea was a steady build up. First, men into space. Then, a permanent space station. And from that space station, then you could go to the Moon with resupply from the station or launching directly from it. And then you could set up a station on the moon. And onward and outward.
To beat the Soviets, America cut out that middle man and went directly from the Earth to the Moon, and then afterward talked about space stations and moonbases. Hence, you had no build up the likes of which could have been, and no intellectual anchor that we would have had we already had a space station. We've been going back to go forward again.
 
Here is the problem I have found with changing that "Moon Landing", or at least changing it.

Apparently John F Kennedy was not that enthusiastic about the Space Program, and had intended to cancel Apollo when he had become President, and hadn't done anything on that score only because of the influence of his Vice President Lyndon Johnson. Kennedy had proposed international cooperation, but Congress had already agreed that wasn't going to fly.

The Moon path was a result of Gagarin getting to space ahead of Shepard, who could have potentially made the flight some time beforehand. If we switch the two, put the Americans ahead of the Soviets from the get go, then Kennedy likely won't set the Moon as the next goal of the American Space Program; however, we have to balance that with the idea that he might can the Apollo Program altogether, or at the very least isn't going to support the funding that Apollo needs to succeed.

Essentially, we would need Lyndon Johnson, one of NASA's major advocates, to win the Democratic nomination in 1960, and then somehow manage to defeat Richard Nixon for the Presidency; that way NASA would have the slower approach (or should) that you think they should have advocated, while also receiving significant support from the President. Also should butterfly Vietnam unless Johnson decides to take a similar path in the end.
 
I've always been a fan of an idea of slower and steadier. Before "We choose to go to the Moon" the idea was a steady build up. First, men into space. Then, a permanent space station. And from that space station, then you could go to the Moon with resupply from the station or launching directly from it. And then you could set up a station on the moon. And onward and outward.

I think you're spot on. Honestly, although the Apollo program is the US's greatest triumph in space it did give rise to a sort of "Apollo syndrome" in how both the public and NASA were acclimatized to a certain set of circumstances, goals, and price tags for a space program. Deadlines would be tight, budgets effectively unlimited, and goals spectacular, and anything else was disappointing. This led to a dramatic oversell of the space shuttle's capabilities (weekly flights! $100/lb cost to orbit!) to keep up the "wow" factor and an institutional unwillingness to commit to the unsexy but valuable Apollo-derived science missions and space stations.

The "ideal" pace would be slower, and more gradual, but cumulative. Let's say that Von Braun somehow pulls a fast one and launches a crude satellite on a cobbled together Redstone/proto-Juno a few months before Sputnik (several sources say that he technically could have but didn't due to at the time inter-service rivalry over who controlled space) but the Soviets still beat the US with a man in space. The US is still motivated to pursue spaceflight, but there isn't a "Sputnik panic." There is no "we will go to the moon" speech.

Mercury goes about as OTL, but the difference is that most of the mid-late 60's is occupied with something quite like a slowed-down Gemini. Skill building, demonstrating capability, flights of small, monolithic space stations (basically a civilian MOL) on uprated medium-lift boosters like Titan. Some experimenting with on-orbit propellant storage and transfer culminating in a 1969-70 circumlunar flight by a modified ATL pseudo-Gemini/pseudo Agena (I think Dick Gordon was a big advocate of this mission profile but I might be misremembering.)

Assume the USSR continues roughly on it's OTL trajectory- a fizzled moon program (maybe sunk ATL by lack of serious American rivalry rather than the many organizational and technical hurdles of OTL)

The American program is then free to continue in a progressive, evolutionary way until a lunar landing in the mid-1970's that makes use of evolutionary orbital infrastructure (something like a Big Gemini+separately launched LM/transstage combo that makes use of orbital propellant depos for a top-off pre-TLI).

The idea being that the US goes slower, and cheaper, but it goes to stay.
 

katchen

Banned
The ideal space program would be private. Congress appropriates a series of escalating Prizes for orbiting the Earth, manned, orbiting the Moon, manned , a Space station and lab over a certain cubic footage, a Moon landing, a Moon base, Near earth object landing, Mars, Venus, Mercury orbiting, Mars landing, Mars base, Ceres landing /base, Callisto landing/base, ect. tjhe way European kings used to. Private enterprise does the rest. That way, it's harder for the government to pull the plug if space exploration becomes politically incorrect. :cool:
 
The Apollo program was the Most successful us Space program,
Only the us goverment cancelt it !
They could Keep the program alive wih Full Apollo Applications program in 1970s
Two skylabs, Dual flight to Moon with 14 to 90 days on lunar surface, GEO missions
Next step would be in 1980s
Space Station, small lunar Base ans manned fly-by Mission to Mars or Venus.
Mabye in 1990s a manned Mission to Mars.

Vietnam would Not Problem, with Continuation of the Soviet competitiveness in space ventures to moon and to mars
 

Riain

Banned
The problem with the slow and steady approach is that it is just as susceptible to budget slashing as the BOOM-Apollo approach without the awesome result of Apollo. I personally would have the BOOM-Apollo approach followed by a slow and steady use of the huge infrastructure and technology base built up in the boom period, perhaps like a gold rush city or the railway boom infrastructure.

As for a PoD, perhaps the Soviets are a good motivator. I think that part of NASA's swagger is that they did something that nobody else did, but if the Soviets went to the Moon in maybe 1970 or 71 then by duplicating it the enormity of the achievement is lessened into something that other countries can do. I think this would keep the US in the space game, at the very least making full use of the remaining Apollos as space stations until the Shuttle comes along to service and expand these space stations.
 
The problem with the slow and steady approach is that it is just as susceptible to budget slashing as the BOOM-Apollo approach without the awesome result of Apollo. I personally would have the BOOM-Apollo approach followed by a slow and steady use of the huge infrastructure and technology base built up in the boom period, perhaps like a gold rush city or the railway boom infrastructure.

As for a PoD, perhaps the Soviets are a good motivator. I think that part of NASA's swagger is that they did something that nobody else did, but if the Soviets went to the Moon in maybe 1970 or 71 then by duplicating it the enormity of the achievement is lessened into something that other countries can do. I think this would keep the US in the space game, at the very least making full use of the remaining Apollos as space stations until the Shuttle comes along to service and expand these space stations.

IVPJG00Z.jpg


race-for-the-moon.jpg


That's exactly what it would take - a more aggressive Soviet space program. Fear of a Red Moon.

So if the Soviets are able to start their lunar program in earnest a few years sooner...if they're able to beat us to circumlunar space, and then announce plans for a lunar base...that might be enough to see Apollo extended into something more lasting, like a lunar base.

Either that, or alien artifacts on the Moon. Some external prod that's too powerful to ignore.
 
Soviets are definitely the best motivator. The key is to make sure that it's a proper give and take. If either side just dominates, the other will eventually give up.

Soviets send first man into space, US lands on moon first. Soviets set up orbital space station, US sets up moon base. Soviets orbit Mars, US lands on it. Etc.
 
To beat the Soviets, America cut out that middle man and went directly from the Earth to the Moon, and then afterward talked about space stations and moonbases. Hence, you had no build up the likes of which could have been, and no intellectual anchor that we would have had we already had a space station. We've been going back to go forward again.

If you mean Gemini as middleman, cutting that out would lead to disaster. NASA (and anybody spying on them) learned a lot from that program, including the proper method to train for EVA.
 
If you mean Gemini as middleman, cutting that out would lead to disaster. NASA (and anybody spying on them) learned a lot from that program, including the proper method to train for EVA.

I think he means orbital infrastructure - space stations and so forth. Which was NASA's initial plan, really. Gain experience operating in LEO for a while, and then build on that to start a lunar program. Instead, feeling heat from a Russian push for the Moon, we skipped all that and went straight for the Moon.
 
The problem with the slow and steady approach is that it is just as susceptible to budget slashing as the BOOM-Apollo approach without the awesome result of Apollo. I personally would have the BOOM-Apollo approach followed by a slow and steady use of the huge infrastructure and technology base built up in the boom period, perhaps like a gold rush city or the railway boom infrastructure.

Is that really the case? I'm not sure I fully buy that line of argument. I think your gold rush analogy is apt but in a different way: for every modern thriving city there's a lot more ghost towns.

You say slow-and-steady is just as susceptible to budget cuts but I don't buy it. The difference between a "spectacular heavy lift" based and a "evolutionary medium-lift based" space program is precisely it's resistance to defunding.

The infrastructure for heavy-lift like the Saturn V or STS is a fixed cost. The workforce is a fixed (and huge) cost. You have have to run LC39 with the same bottom line if you fly ten shuttle flights a year or two. This is one of the big problems I see with SLS, and with exploration-class heavy lift in general: you just don't get the flight rates to see any savings or economies of scale. How many lunar-class heavy-lift rockets have ever flown? Fifteen Saturn V's and two Energias? Do these launchers and their associated (colossally expensive) infrastructure have any use or rationale other than expensive exploration or on-orbit megaprojects?

When budgets knives come out (as they did OTL in the 70's) the pure science and exploration stuff will get the axe, with space travel pared down to military use and commercial satellite launch. The Space Shuttle got the funding it did only because a lot of really crazy promises were made about how cheap it would make military and commercial satellite launch. If you have a space program with an Apollo-and-BOOM model you're just shit out of luck because your infrastructure and space travel architecture has no other way to justify itself. Even Saturn 1B was a pretty expensive way of getting three dudes to a space station.


Now, in a slow-and-steady program, with alt-Gemini dragging on, a launch every few months through the sixties, the space race in a languid slow-mo, US launch systems begin to gravitate around some sort of Titan-GLV (or equivalent optimized for civilian roles). If by the late 60's there's the option of some sort of multibody Titan (say, three cores ganged together) you can play legos with cores and SRB's and evolve a pretty wide range of launch capabilities that use the same production facilities, production and handling workforce, and pad facilities. Youre putting spysats in polar orbit, sending men up in evolved Gemini-analogs, sending up MOL-derived civilian station modules, and putting commercial satellites into space with essentially the same rocket.

I'm not pulling this rationale out of nowhere: it's essentially the Eyes Turned Skywards model at work from the get-go. Instead of going for a modular/refined Saturn capability post-Apollo the US- NASA and USAF- goes for common, scaleable Titan-analog capability post Mercury.

In this sort of "ideal" pacing, if times get rough budget wise you fly fewer guys or wind up with station modules in storage like what happened with the Russian DOS-8 and Pirs modules in the 90's. Things get lean but you don't loose your entire manned launch capability in one fell swoop when Gojira Proxmire stomps through Canaveral and takes away your moon rockets and space planes. Hell, if you refine the rocket design enough (which would probably happen with a common rocket family) you can pinch your pennies and buy capability "on installment" over time until you've saved up enough parts in storage to launch your five-core mega-alt-Titan/Centaur to carry a station core or transstage/lander to TLI.
 

Riain

Banned
This thread is about the most successful US space programme possible. Since it was possible for the US to build the Apollo programme by 1969 anything less than that would be by definition less successful unless you redefine the measure of success. I'd suggest that slow and steady after 1969 would be the recipe for a more successful space programme, using the awesome array of equipment built for the moon race for wider purposes.
 

Archibald

Banned
This thread is about the most successful US space programme possible. Since it was possible for the US to build the Apollo programme by 1969 anything less than that would be by definition less successful unless you redefine the measure of success. I'd suggest that slow and steady after 1969 would be the recipe for a more successful space programme, using the awesome array of equipment built for the moon race for wider purposes.

Lunar Exploration Systems for Apollo (LESA) - Boeing study for a lunar base, 1964 -66. :)

LESA2.png
 

Archibald

Banned
Where there any plans for a huge space station launched by the N1?

Yes - the MKBS (with a nuclear reactor, the yellow little thing at the end of the three booms; and an artificial gravity treadmill, the vertical truss in the middle)
mkbs.jpg
 
Link,

I'm not pulling this rationale out of nowhere: it's essentially the Eyes Turned Skywards model at work from the get-go. Instead of going for a modular/refined Saturn capability post-Apollo the US- NASA and USAF- goes for common, scaleable Titan-analog capability post Mercury.

Depends on what you mean by "modular/refined Saturn." NASA in ETS uses a Saturn Ic, which is just a Saturn F-1A engine first stage with an S-IVb slapped on top. The Air Force ends up sticking with Titans until the 80's, sure, but...

It's only after the Vulkan Panic that e of pi and Truth have NASA and the AF combining on a Saturn multibody platform, using Titan boosters. Which required, well, a Second Space Race of sorts. Fortunately, Saturn hardware was still in production to build on.

Otherwise, you make some good points.

I suppose the larger question is whether an alternative 50's-60's where there's no Space Race, or at least not one as intense as we had, would have produced a better space program in the long run. It might well have forced NASA into a more economical approach, one that would have suggested using a multi-core approach. At some point, however, there's going to need to be a big boost in funding to do anything beyond LEO - or indeed, even a really major station - and that requires some kind of political prod.
 
Emperor Norton I said:
No Vietnam. Fewer to no NASA disasters. Continuation of the Soviet competitiveness in space ventures. Retardation of technological development to make manned exploration more necessary and manned habitation of satellites and other assets that were automated necessary. All of those or an assortment of those.
Helpful, but not essential. IMO, there's a bigger issue that needs addressing...
Emperor Norton I said:
Before "We choose to go to the Moon" the idea was a steady build up.
And that's it. JFK wanted an easy win. So IMO you need to either end the Cold War, have somebody else win the election, or have JFK's advisors suggest *Skylab instead. The second one seems most likely.
Linkwerk said:
The infrastructure for heavy-lift like the Saturn V or STS is a fixed cost. The workforce is a fixed (and huge) cost.
Fixed, yes. It doesn't have to be NASA-sized huge, tho.
Linkwerk said:
Things get lean but you don't loose your entire manned launch capability in one fell swoop
You also have the commercial side subsidizing you, no?
 
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You also have the commercial side subsidizing you, no?

That's exactly the idea. Launcher commonality (some level of it at least) would mean that "baseline" space activity would at least keep the workforce and launch infrastructure ticking over and NASA activities would benefit from the economies of scale involved. This would also make US rockets more competitive on the commercial launch market, although that benefit wouldn't be seen for decades past the timeframe I'm talking about (late 60's early 70's).
 
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