Otl, Catherine's, or rather Sophia's future husband, Peter the Third, was originally heir of sweden, only gaining the throne of mighty Russia through Elizabeth's proclamation. But what if she didnt, and Sophia married him as Heir of Sweden? Could she have couped the young king and restore Sweden to great power status?

I'm not asking for a Swedewank here, but catherine the great is known for bringing Russia into a Golden Age, so if anyone could do it, it would be her. Sophia the Great, Queen of Sweden sounds nice too
 
Catherine/Sophia was not great. She, alongside Peter I, is among the most overrated rulers of Russia, so no, she would not turn Sweden into powsrhouse again.
 
Catherine/Sophia was not great. She, alongside Peter I, is among the most overrated rulers of Russia, so no, she would not turn Sweden into powsrhouse again.
I'm genuinely curious how you came to that conclusion, mostly about Peter. The man built the russian navy, conquered his way to the ports for that navy, imported western technology and just brought russia into European mindset. The only thing really against him is the frankly ridiculous things he did to westernized their culture (clerical beard tax...)

Catherine, I'll admit, pulled back some progressive reforms but considering she heavily modernized the army and brought Russia to new territorial heights, in addition to sponsoring inoculations, I think it weighs out in her favor.
 
@alexmilman could you please go in for some educational work on stereotypes? Because your longposts on subject read much better than my longposts.

Long story short - Peter's reforms in many aspects were "reforms" in sence of mindless cosplay without genuine purpose. His Navy building, while impressive on paper, was just for a single war and rotted happily afterwards. Peter completely failed to create any proper merchant navy, and the export of Russian goods was still performed by Dutch/British traders.
The reforms were also done without any, if superficial, understanding of economics.
Just because he made the court cosplay Dutch fashions instead of Polish fashions that were in vogue in previous reigns, don't make him some uber-progressive. Later reigns (Anna Ioannovna, for example) had to apply a ton of fixes just to make this stuff work.
 
@alexmilman could you please go in for some educational work on stereotypes? Because your longposts on subject read much better than my longposts.

Long story short - Peter's reforms in many aspects were "reforms" in sence of mindless cosplay without genuine purpose. His Navy building, while impressive on paper, was just for a single war and rotted happily afterwards. Peter completely failed to create any proper merchant navy, and the export of Russian goods was still performed by Dutch/British traders.
The reforms were also done without any, if superficial, understanding of economics.
Just because he made the court cosplay Dutch fashions instead of Polish fashions that were in vogue in previous reigns, don't make him some uber-progressive. Later reigns (Anna Ioannovna, for example) had to apply a ton of fixes just to make this stuff work.
Ah, thank you.
 
For example, when making everyone, including native fishers of White Sea, switch to Dutch style ship, he basically destroyed the polar navigation. Due to kochs being outlawed for the reason that they were not Dutch and thus not cool, the concept of icebreaker had to be invented anew in XIX century.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koch_(boat)
Just an example of chasing cool over practical.
 
@alexmilman could you please go in for some educational work on stereotypes? Because your longposts on subject read much better than my longposts.

Long story short - Peter's reforms in many aspects were "reforms" in sence of mindless cosplay without genuine purpose. His Navy building, while impressive on paper, was just for a single war and rotted happily afterwards. Peter completely failed to create any proper merchant navy, and the export of Russian goods was still performed by Dutch/British traders.
The reforms were also done without any, if superficial, understanding of economics.
Just because he made the court cosplay Dutch fashions instead of Polish fashions that were in vogue in previous reigns, don't make him some uber-progressive. Later reigns (Anna Ioannovna, for example) had to apply a ton of fixes just to make this stuff work.

You did it quite well on your own. :)

To start with, Peter did not get any kind of an education even by the contemporary standards and in his youth was communicating mostly with the scumbags from the German Settlement (this does not mean that the settlers were scum, he was just picking ones as Lefort). Small wonder that for him advantages of the Western civilization were limited to the superficial trappings like civilian and military dress, smoking, etc.

The “West” had trade companies, fine, Russia must have ones and it did not matter that it lacked the notion of credit or the merchant class interested in a maritime trade (it seems that the most famous overseas enterprise was a ship with the Russian merchants arriving to Copenhagen to sell the wooden spoons:) ).

The “West” had ...er... “western style armies” so instead of continuing the earlier reforms in that area, let’s break everything and start from the scratch slavishly copying everything with a disregard to the cultural specifics, climate and other trifles (Russian soldiers got the overcoats only during the reign of Paul I). Needless to say that in the general organization, uniforms, tactics and weapons he always managed to chose the worst case available as a model.

As I understand, there was some underlying XVII philosophy about the state benefitting from a complete governmental control with the government acting upon the orders of a monarch who knows better for his subjects. So in that sense Peter was quite consistent, especially in his disregard of the annoying realities. Now, taking into an account that Russia was a very poor country with a very backward economy, development by a decree was not working as intended even if there were some short-/mid-term successes like creation of the metallurgy on Ural (and “Demidov Empire”) but it was producing and selling abroad the peg iron, not the finished goods.

Production of the woolen fabrics to which he paid a lot of attention (including order to buy and breed the “right” sheep) did not really pick up until the late XIX but, OTOH, the flax-based textile production, after surviving Peter’s (rather destructive) directives, became one of the fastest growing Russian industries (with the exports to the Asian markets) just because government mostly ignored it.

The ship construction, as you mentioned, was for a single war and even in that war the big ships proved to be almost useless because most of the naval operations had been conducted by the galleys (an excellent TL by @Archduke is very flattering to the Baltic fleet :) ). Outside the ships purchased abroad, the Russian ships had been built out of a timber not dried properly (of course, Peter issued an order for using the high quality oak but, with an avalanche of other directives, these oak trunks had been laying on the River banks completely forgotten). The wharfs had been built in a low salt water area in conveniently located and then kept in a mouth of a major river, rotting within few years. Eventually (after Peter’s death) at least some of the wharfs had been transferred to the White Sea (among other things, Peter closed port of Archangelsk to promote St-Petersburg). Speaking of which, in his drive to create Russian navy Peter destroyed the only Russian naval culture by ordering settlers of the North to build their ships following the Dutch model, which, unlike the local “kotch”, was not suited for sailing in the icy waters.

With the military expenses amounting to the 80 - 90% of the state income, population had been heavily taxed but the model, while being extremely oppressive, was not producing the expected results (the attempt to change it had been made immediately after Peter’s death) and “solution” had been found in billeting the troops in private homes with the resulting endless extortions.

To promote science (and whatever else) Peter founded the Russian academy but forgot to provide money for the students. The young nobles sent abroad had been, presumably, learning some carpenting skills and other manual stuff but were not getting any regular education, especially in the areas needed by the officers, civic administrators, etc. Engineering (both military and civic) skills were in an extremely short supply with practically no local cadres getting the needed education and a complete reliance upon the foreigners like Munnich (who was, indeed, a very capable specialist but even his knowledge was not used for educating the locals). Hence the standard complaints about the “tyrany by the Germans” even at the times when most of the high-ranking positions had been held by the Russians: these “Germans” were practically the only people with a necessary education and/or willingness to do a thorough work in their area of responsibility (does not mean that they were less corrupt but this is a different issue).

And the list is going on in pretty much each and every aspect of life.
 
Catherine/Sophia was not great. She, alongside Peter I, is among the most overrated rulers of Russia, so no, she would not turn Sweden into powsrhouse again.
An idea that “Great” is a God-like figure capable of performing positive miracles is not quite realistic. Louis XIV is “Great” but he did a huge damage to France.
Catherine made Russia into the Great Power but she just continued the existing process with a lot of mistakes and inefficiencies. Of course, she was extremely intelligent person so it can be argued that her rule could be beneficial within the reasonable limits.
 
Catherine made Russia into the Great Power but she just continued the existing process with a lot of mistakes and inefficiencies. Of course, she was extremely intelligent person so it can be argued that her rule could be beneficial within the reasonable limits.
This. In Sweden BOTH King and Queen are under serious political constraints. Though, in fact, it's her husband who can shine in this scenario, as I think Peter III would treat Swedes with much less disdain than Russians. Not that Fique can't contribute, though.
 
German Settlement (this does not mean that the settlers were scum, he was just picking ones as Lefort).
Lefort was more fun to hang with compared to competent "boring" people like Gordon, and Petya's manchild tendencies were actively encouraged by his mom & uncles (god forbid he actually becomes competent and tries to intervent with their industrial-scale thievery of state finances).
 
Lefort was more fun to hang with compared to competent "boring" people like Gordon, and Petya's manchild tendencies were actively encouraged by his mom & uncles (god forbid he actually becomes competent and tries to intervent with their industrial-scale thievery of state finances).

I’m afraid that Gordon and his abilities/competence are more then slightly overestimated. He was, presumably a reasonably competent regimental commander but his troops did not produce any miracles during the Crimean campaign or Peter’s Azov campaigns. But greatly “distinguished” himself by suppressing revolt of the Streltsy. Of course, he was a greater military specialist than anybody in Peter’s entourage prior to 1700 but this is not a plank raised too high. :)

He clearly had a flexible backbone which was demonstrated by his fast switching of loyalty from Sophia (who made him a general) to Peter. Being put in charge of organizing Peter’s new army after Azov, he produced a rubble which was easily defeated at Narva (after a convincing demonstration of a complete inability to conduct a siege of even the second rate fortress with the crumbling walls).

BTW, Peter did like him and he was the 1st foreigner whom Peter visited in the Settlement.
 
I’m afraid that Gordon and his abilities/competence are more then slightly overestimated. He was, presumably a reasonably competent regimental commander but his troops did not produce any miracles during the Crimean campaign or Peter’s Azov campaigns. But greatly “distinguished” himself by suppressing revolt of the Streltsy. Of course, he was a greater military specialist than anybody in Peter’s entourage prior to 1700 but this is not a plank raised too high. :)
He was favored as early as Alexis I reign. Alexis did make him a military governor of Sevsk, which is a rather high post to be given to foreigner.
His military cred stems as early as 1670ies, so... I'm thinking the truth is in the middle.
 
He was favored as early as Alexis I reign. Alexis did make him a military governor of Sevsk, which is a rather high post to be given to foreigner.
His military cred stems as early as 1670ies, so... I'm thinking the truth is in the middle.

I did not say that he was a nincompoop (even Lefort was good for something): was handy in suppressing the Cossack rebellion in 1671 (still a regimental commander in 1678) and in campaign against Doroshenko in 1676. As I said, he was quite competent regimental commander. He had a good reputation on Polish service (mostly of fighting against the Russians) and after entering Russian service he had a distinguished service record as a subordinate commander.

But at the absense of the better cadres Peter elevated him into a position in which he failed to produce the good results. It was one thing to train a single regiment for a good parade ground performance and quite another to build up an army ready to fight one of the highest quality armies in Europe.
 
But at the absense of the better cadres Peter elevated him into a position in which he failed to produce the good results. It was one thing to train a single regiment for a good parade ground performance and quite another to build up an army ready to fight one of the highest quality armies in Europe.
This. I'm not saying he was a military genius. He was just the most competent in Petrine retinue, which mostly consisted of people to have fun with (and some competents like Kasogov ended up at the wrong side of political spectrum).
 
He was made major general in 1678, during Feodor III reign; so it's not quite biting the hand that feeds - given he had conflict with Golitsin.
But Golitsin/Sophia made him a full General in 1687. Well, let’s not over exaggerate importance of the “foreign” military titles of that time: he was still a commander of a regiment (Butirsky regiment). :)
 
This. I'm not saying he was a military genius. He was just the most competent in Petrine retinue, which mostly consisted of people to have fun with (and some competents like Kasogov ended up at the wrong side of political spectrum).
Completely agree with that but you probably agree that this definition tells us little about the scope of his competence and not even a compliment. :)
 
Completely agree with that but you probably agree that this definition tells us little about the scope of his competence and not even a compliment. :)
In the land of blinds, one-eyed man is a king.
That said, Russia had no "great" commanders at this period at all - Kasogov is given some PR recently, but he, like Gordon, is a niche specialist.

Now, let's return to our sheep and rams. Namely to Karl XIII of Sweden and Queen Sophia Augusta. I doubt that they would be able to achieve much more than OTL Gustav III.
 
In the land of blinds, one-eyed man is a king.
That said, Russia had no "great" commanders at this period at all - Kasogov is given some PR recently, but he, like Gordon, is a niche specialist.

Now, let's return to our sheep and rams. Namely to Karl XIII of Sweden and Queen Sophia Augusta. I doubt that they would be able to achieve much more than OTL Gustav III.

To quote from Saltykov-Schedrin, «в сём же сомневаюсь»
 
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