An Age of Prosperity, The Kingdom of Denmark

[Bastiram]

In 1216, a Golden bull proclaimed everything north of the Elbe and Elde River, to no longer be part of his Holy Roman Empire, but to be a part of the Kingdom of Denmark. The County of Holstein and the two duchies of Mecklenburg and Pomerania now answered to King Valdemar “the victorious”. In 1219 Valdemar eagerly participated in the Northern crusades, Valdemar and his vassals sailed to the pagan eastern Baltic with supposedly 1.500 ships. Here they carved out a new duchy expanding Danish control in the Baltic Sea.

However, it was not to last, in the summer of 1223 Valdemar II and the elected heir Valdemar “the young” were abducted by the dissatisfied vassal Henry I Count of Schwerin. The king and heir were kept for ransom, yet the negotiations were drawn out, the king’s nephew Albert of Orlamünde, which had been given the counties of Holstein and Ratzeburg were defeated in the battle of Mölln in 1225, which led to further defections among the Danish vassals. For a staggering sum of money and hostages Valdemar II were released and later his elected heir too, however besides money and hostages, he had to give up his gains in northern Germany to the Emperor. Valdemar tried to regain his lost lands with an army raised in Slesvig. While successful, in the start, the army were defeated at the battle of Bornhöved, the resources of the kingdom were spent and Valdemar had to give up his ambition in 1227.

After his dead, his sons would fight over the throne, which were the start of the so-called age of decay a period of 100 years of despair that nearly ended the Kingdom in its entirety. Under Valdemar II the Kingdom of Denmark including the Danish Duchy of Slesvig had been home to a million souls, it would take up to 600 years to reach the same numbers.

However, what if the abduction had failed or the rebellion had been defeated? What if the age of decay had not happened? Could Valdemar II’s descendants have reached what Denmark and Sweden fought over for so long throughout Europe’s history? Could Denmark have stayed a major power and established a dominium maris baltici?

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In the summer of 1223 Valdemar II the King of Denmark and his son, the elected-prince Valdemar is out hunting on the isle of Lyø, just south of the Danish isle of Fyn. During the feast the following night the king’s retinue discovers, unsavoury figures sneaking up on the celebrating party of Danish, Wendish and Saxon nobles. As the unknown assailants storm the gathering, the Kings retinue respond, brutal hand-to-hand fighting occurs between the veteran soldiers of Valdemar II and the surprisingly well-armed thieves and cutthroats. As dusk nears midnight, the darkness is only adding to the confusion. As the fighting continues the assailants realising they have missed their objective breaks in panic and scatters across the small isle, they are hunted down brutally during the night.

The victory has not been without cost; over half of the kings retinue either are dead or will never fight again if they survive their wounds. The king’s nephew Albert of Orlamünde, the governor of the two counties of Holstein and Ratzeburg is dead, one of, if not his most distinguished battlefield commander, that had participated in the crusade in Estonia and the conquest of Northern Germany. Likewise, Henry I the Count of Schwerin had disappeared during the fighting, and feared dead. The morning after a few men of Valdermar’s retinue returns with two captured men, which had tried to hide in an old megalithic tomb.

Under torture, the two men revealed a much more sinister purpose and the reason why they had attacked the royal party. They were men that under the command of Henry the Count of Schwerin had been tasked with abducting the King and his heir. The reason being Henry, Count of Schwerin were dissatisfied with having to give up half his land to his grandnephew Nils Nielsen, the grandchild of Valdemar II. The abduction was part of a larger plot involving Adolf IV, Count of Schaunburg, the son of Adolf III which had been the previous count of Holstein, and being disposed by Valdemar II. The alliance between the two counts were supported by the Prince-Archbishop of Bremen Gerhard II and Albert I the Duke of Saxony. Both of which were unhappy with the position the Kingdom of Denmark had gained in Northern Europe under Valdemar II.

 

[Zulfurium]

Please let this live It is so rare to see a DaneWank

 

[The Professor]

Assuming that Denmark keeps the Holstein-Pomerania region as under it's realm then I suspect in the event of any disagreements with the Empire then the Emperor will look to Sweden, Norway, and Poland to ally with.

 

[Bastiram]

Assuming that Denmark keeps the Holstein-Pomerania region as under it's realm then I suspect in the event of any disagreements with the Empire then the Emperor will look to Sweden, Norway, and Poland to ally with.

The emperor does indeed regret the goldenbull of 1216, However Denmark have excellent relations with Pope Honorious III, at the moment, I do also believe there are some ties to Flanders. Most importantly Honorious were able to block Emperor Frederick II, from interfering in the uprising that happened after Valdemar II's abduction.
About allies, for Frederik II both Sweden and Norway at this time are fairly weak compared to Denmark in it self, Poland is another matter, however they soon have to deal with the crusaders to their north.

 

[Jürgen]

@Bastiram Looking forward to this timeline. Some ideas with a POD at this point, Denmark will likely lead a Prussian crusade, but we will likely also see the Estonian islands, Wiek and the Courish peninsula under Danish rule. Also to avoid an early end to the age of prosperity the Danish succession need to be clear. It would be best if Prince Valdemar survived and some of his younger half brothers died. An general problem with Valdemar II was his tendency to partition his realm under his different sons, it's not a major problem as long as Denmark expand, but it was a major part in why Denmark suffered so much after the losses in Germany. Simply every claimant to the Danish crown had his own fief, which could fuel the conflicts to gain the crown. Valdemar II's heir have to centralise power under the crown for Denmark avoiding succession wars.

Other thought the survival of the Valdemaran Empire also mean that the Hanseatic League fail to become a power factor in Baltic. The Danish king will likely monopolise the herring and salt trade, which will serve as a early version of Sound Dues as source of royal income. Of course we may see alternate trading league arise the Kalmar coastline and Gotland was dominated by semi-independent city states in this period, the Danish king could push/support these "cities" independence from Sweden, accidental creating a merchant republic/trading league.

 

[Deleted member 83898]

Definitely following this TL. You don't see a Danish TL very often on this board.

 

[Bastiram]

@Bastiram Looking forward to this timeline. Some ideas with a POD at this point, Denmark will likely lead a Prussian crusade, but we will likely also see the Estonian islands, Wiek and the Courish peninsula under Danish rule. Also to avoid an early end to the age of prosperity the Danish succession need to be clear. It would be best if Prince Valdemar survived and some of his younger half brothers died. An general problem with Valdemar II was his tendency to partition his realm under his different sons, it's not a major problem as long as Denmark expand, but it was a major part in why Denmark suffered so much after the losses in Germany. Simply every claimant to the Danish crown had his own fief, which could fuel the conflicts to gain the crown. Valdemar II's heir have to centralise power under the crown for Denmark avoiding succession wars.

Yes Valdemar II had allegedly promised to lead a crusade to the holy lands to Pope Honorious III in secret. While I for obvious reasons dislike the idea about Valdemar II running around in holy lands, there are luckily still valid crusading areas in the baltic that can substitute. Valdemar might just be remembered as the "Crusader" in this timeline instead of "the Victoious" even though in this TL he will be on the winners side more often

Valdemar II will make same mistakes as he did in OTL and gives the brothers of Prince Valdemar fiefs, however he will not have the same looses, However while it might provide issues for the further Valdemar III, It will however maybe also solve the problem for further generations.

Other thought the survival of the Valdemaran Empire also mean that the Hanseatic League fail to become a power factor in Baltic. The Danish king will likely monopolise the herring and salt trade, which will serve as a early version of Sound Dues as source of royal income. Of course we may see alternate trading league arise the Kalmar coastline and Gotland was dominated by semi-independent city states in this period, the Danish king could push/support these "cities" independence from Sweden, accidental creating a merchant republic/trading league.

What to do with Hamburg and Lübeck is one of the biggest problem for me personally. While both are under Danish control at this point they do have some distinct characters, Hamburg first of all actually became A free Imperial city of the empire before it were given/conquered. While Lübeck is not bestowed this, they would when they were a part of the Empire again in 1227, so the ambition should still be there.
Personally I am a staunch believe in that to get a more powerful Denmark it need to foster a larger Urban population earlier on, and not end up with just Copenhagen. Hamburg and Lübeck are prime candidates to be an inspiration as such for the King of Denmark aslong as they stay loyal. Which poses the dilemma I am standing in at the moment, while the Hanseatic league is butterflied away. What should the king do to the two cities, personally my train of thought is to make them free cities of the Kingdom, I am however worried if that would weaken the Danish kingdoms too much.


For some reason it keeps adding (/user) to the end here, Don't know why, even readds it if I try to remove it. Not sure what's wrong

 

[Bastiram]

In 1223 Valdemar II have a multiplied of vassals, some staying loyal, others joining the rebellion :

County of Holstein, the main battlefield of the rebellion, with the governor Albert of Orlamünde dead, the minor nobles declare their support for Adolf IV.

Hamburg, The once free Imperial city is now a part of Denmark, and have a Danish garrison; it stays Loyal to Valdemar II, in hope of gaining recognition as a free city of the Danish Kingdom.

Lübeck, not a free imperial city, and is too garrisoned and under direct Danish control, the city council stays loyal to Valdemar II, with much the same hopes as Hamburg.

County of Ratzeburg, this small county is sandwiched between Holstein, and the count of Schwerin’s land, it quickly falls to the forces of Count Henry I, in his objective to link up with his ally Adolf IV

Duchy of Mecklenburg, the origination of the rebellion, with no actual duke at the head of the nobles*, the decision falls to the four major landowners:
Henry Borwin II, the most powerful noble in Mecklenburg, and duke in all but name. He is the Lord of Mecklenburg, but also the lands of Parchim and Werle. Unhappy that Valdemar II have taken control of his uncles land of Rostock after his death, and that the County of Ratzeburg were not given to him, since he had been the one to subjugate it in 1220. He decides to throw his support behind Adolf IV and Henry I.
Henry I, Count of Schwerin, is one of the leaders of the rebellion from start.
Peter, Bishop of Ratzeburg and Brunward, bishop of Schwerin, both decides that their loyalty is towards the arch diocese of Bremen, and both throw their support to the rebellion.

Principality of Rügen, Prince Vitslav I, supports Valdemar II

Duchy of Pomerania, Pomerania is split into 3 duchies: Pomerania-Demmin in the west, with Wartislaw III as duke, however his mother Ingard of Denmark is the regent. Pomerania-Stettin with Barnim I as duke, with Miroslava of Pommeralia as regent. Lastly, there is Pomerania-Schlawe-Stolp in the eastern parts with Ratibor II as duke. All supports Valdemar II

Duchy of Estonia, Knud Valdemersen, the illegitimate son of Valdemar, stays loyal, however he is in no position to actually help. German settlers and the Brothers of the Sword are a problem on his duchy's borders from the south.

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Henry Borwin II might very well be the duke of Mecklenburg, as in the other nobles being vassals to him, however in my research he is been constantly named as lord of Mecklenburg (the territory), I have kept it as such.

About the pictures, the borders are actually that of 1226-1227 after the areas once again became part of the Holy Roman Empire, as such this is more of a guideline.

About population numbers, I have been looking hard to try to get estimates of population numbers for the different areas under Valdemar II’s control and it have been hard. The nearest I have gotten is extrapolated data for just after the black death in 1350, the only area I have data for is Denmark in 1200, with the one million mentioned (with Slesvig). However luckily the extrapolated data is detailed, but probably to a degree very uncertain. As such if anyone have, other data please share or an opinion of these numbers:

Denmark with Slesvig in 1200: 1 million.

from 1350

Denmark: 590.000

Slesvig: 130.000

Holstein: 240.000

County of Ratzeburg: 40.000

Duchy of Mecklenbrug: 280.000

Principality of Rügen: 100.000

Duchy of Pomerania: 240.000

Duchy of Estonia: 90.000

I do find some of these numbers optimistic, especially in the case of Denmark. As Denmark lost quite an amount of population between 1220 and 1340. Which arguably is not shown in these numbers in my opinion

 

[Redbeard]

I don't think Denmark was worse hit by the plague than the neighbouring areas. Rügen having 100.000 appear way too much, IMHO would be closer to 10.000. Today the Bundesländer Mecklenburg-Vorpommern and Schleswig-Holstein have 1,6 million and 2,8 million respectively and Denmark incl. North Slesvig (but excl. Scania; Halland and Blekinge, would add at least a million) 5,7 million or a factor 77:100. In your numbers it is 174:100 - has it really changed that much? I think by 1350 all of Denmark and N. Germany was mainly backward rural and much forrested and with probably only Lübeck as the only real city. Copenhagen was closing and there was a number of prominent towns like Rostock, Malmø, Aalborg, Aarhus, Stralsund, Flensburg, Ribe, Roskilde, Odense etc., but none in the city class. Rostock perhaps, had 12.000 citizens by 14th century. can't find numbers for 1350 Copenhagen, but had 50.000 by 17th century.

I agree in your general thesis of Denmark needing more urban areas to consolidate. Replacing the more or less permanet war with Lübeck and her Hanseatic allies until early 16th century in OTL with the added tax incomes from cities (and the Oeresund Due) will make the King of Denmark a very wealthy and powerful man. The important balance is I guess to not become too engaged in the central European power play before you have consolidated your power over the Baltic area.

But if/when we come to the big challenge of the Emperor in Wienna like in OTL 30-years war the best bid for a protestant leader will be much stronger.

Soon after other powers depending on overseas trade like England and Netherlands will be rivals though - this town just ain't big enough for all three! But how about William of Orange inherriting not only the Throne of England but also that of Denmark? Don't know how, I guess it would require both some new fornication and others choking in their apple pie. Could also be Queen Anne and her spouse George of Denmark actually having a healthy heir but Frederik IV of Denmark dying childless.

Or it could be the Danes and Dutch allying vs. the English - a Kingdom squezzed by butter and cheese...?

 

[Bastiram]

I don't think Denmark was worse hit by the plague than the neighbouring areas. Rügen having 100.000 appear way too much, IMHO would be closer to 10.000. Today the Bundesländer Mecklenburg-Vorpommern and Schleswig-Holstein have 1,6 million and 2,8 million respectively and Denmark incl. North Slesvig (but excl. Scania; Halland and Blekinge, would add at least a million) 5,7 million or a factor 77:100. In your numbers it is 174:100 - has it really changed that much? I think by 1350 all of Denmark and N. Germany was mainly backward rural and much forrested and with probably only Lübeck as the only real city. Copenhagen was closing and there was a number of prominent towns like Rostock, Malmø, Aalborg, Aarhus, Stralsund, Flensburg, Ribe, Roskilde, Odense etc., but none in the city class. Rostock perhaps, had 12.000 citizens by 14th century. can't find numbers for 1350 Copenhagen, but had 50.000 by 17th century.

I agree in your general thesis of Denmark needing more urban areas to consolidate. Replacing the more or less permanet war with Lübeck and her Hanseatic allies until early 16th century in OTL with the added tax incomes from cities (and the Oeresund Due) will make the King of Denmark a very wealthy and powerful man. The important balance is I guess to not become too engaged in the central European power play before you have consolidated your power over the Baltic area.

But if/when we come to the big challenge of the Emperor in Wienna like in OTL 30-years war the best bid for a protestant leader will be much stronger.

Soon after other powers depending on overseas trade like England and Netherlands will be rivals though - this town just ain't big enough for all three! But how about William of Orange inherriting not only the Throne of England but also that of Denmark? Don't know how, I guess it would require both some new fornication and others choking in their apple pie. Could also be Queen Anne and her spouse George of Denmark actually having a healthy heir but Frederik IV of Denmark dying childless.

Or it could be the Danes and Dutch allying vs. the English - a Kingdom squezzed by butter and cheese...?

Quick note, at this point the Principality of Rügen includes North-western Pommerania, the area of Stralsund, so much of the population is actually on the mainland, certainly not much more than 10.000-20.0000 on Rügen. It is also important to note that these numbers are from 1350. This means that the German settlers have only just begun their settlement in Rügen/Pomerania, while still ongoing in Mecklenburg. Especially Pommerania and Rügen/Stralsund, is very forested but likewise Mecklenburg, however it is changing.

Mecklenburg were hit really really hard in the thirty years war, and in my opinion never really recovered compared to neighbouring areas, also in your comparison you're actually missing the Polish part of Pomerania, adding another 1.710.000 million people. making it 6.1 million people in the area, giving the edge to these areas, however this lacks the numbers of Skåne, Halland and Blekinge, which will put Denmark in the green again.

Yes think about it, If Denmark and the Hanseatic league did not waste their resources fighting each other but working together...

About rivals, Denmark at this point of history is in a remarkable position to consolidates its holdings in the Baltic. Norway is first getting out of its age of civil war in 1220-1240, there is two remaining rebellions that need to happen Sigurds Ribbungs in 1224-1226 and Skule Bårdsson 1230-1240. While Håkon IV of Norways rule from 1216-1263 is seen very much as the zenith of Norwegian middle age history, there is still a possibility to stop it in its track.

Sweden is still to a degree split, it is consolidating its three thrones into one, currently Erick XI is ruling, albeit a minor. however he is the nephew of Valdemar II. Even so, they really don't pose any treat to Denmark at the moment.

England and the Low countries is still lacking its interest in in the Baltic, and while that certainly will rise later it does not really matter at this point.

The emperor is the one big rival at the moment however, Frederik II is spending a lot of his time in Italy. and the distant north is simply not that interesting for him.

The large duchy of Saxony have been split in smaller pieces, With Denmark taking pieces of it (Holstein) However there are still some powerful rulers in the area, Prince-Archbisopric of Bremen is one and the now smaller Duchy of Saxony. However Valdemar II is not without friends in the area, Another nephew, Otto "the child" will eventually consolidate his estates in the old saxon duchy and will be the first Duke of Brunswick-Lüneburg. HE actually joined Valdemar during the battle of Börnhoved in 1227, with rather unfortunate consequences.

The biggest threat is unrest in the Danish Kingdom as history shows us

 

[Jürgen]

Denmark with Slesvig in 1200: 1 million.

from 1350

Denmark: 590.000

Slesvig: 130.000

Holstein: 240.000

County of Ratzeburg: 40.000

Duchy of Mecklenbrug: 280.000

Principality of Rügen: 100.000

Duchy of Pomerania: 240.000

Duchy of Estonia: 90.000

I do find some of these numbers optimistic, especially in the case of Denmark. As Denmark lost quite an amount of population between 1220 and 1340. Which arguably is not shown in these numbers in my opinion

When I look at those populations statistics I think the 1 million are too low. The Black Plague on average cost around 1/3 of the population lives. Which gives us a pre-plague population of 1,2 million. But that was after a century of conflict in Denmark. So let's make a approxiomation of 1,5 million people in Denmark. Holstein, Ratzeburg and Mecklenburg had been relative peaceful and had been long settled by Valdemar II's time. So I think a good guess are that those three had around 0,7 million people. Pomerania on the other hand was newly settled under Valdemar II, and the Slavs had a significant lower population density than Danes and Germans. So I think 100K are a likely population at the time of Valdemar II. Rügen was a important political centre of the Slavs. So I think they likely had a relative high population in pre-Christian era. So around 70K seem likely for them. Estonia likely also lies in the low end, so let's say 50K.

A important aspect are that as long as Denmark doesn't fight domestic civil wars, it will have surplus population to use as settlers in Pomerania, Rügen , Estonia and other thinly populated areas of the east (Prussia). I could easily see Pommerania ending up Danish speaking, Rügen already used Danish law through the late medieval period. Mecklenburg and Holstein are already to densely populated by Saxons, for Danish to become dominant.

Yes Valdemar II had allegedly promised to lead a crusade to the holy lands to Pope Honorious III in secret. While I for obvious reasons dislike the idea about Valdemar II running around in holy lands, there are luckily still valid crusading areas in the baltic that can substitute. Valdemar might just be remembered as the "Crusader" in this timeline instead of "the Victoious" even though in this TL he will be on the winners side more often

While I don't find a crusade in the Levant unlikely, I find a crusade against the Prussians more likely. Denmark and Poland was too my knowledge on friendly term at this point. So we may see Danes and Poles unite in a attack Prussian and other south Baltic tribes. I could also see the Danish king vassalise the Livonian knights simply by saving them after the indigenous uprising in 1236.

Valdemar II will make same mistakes as he did in OTL and gives the brothers of Prince Valdemar fiefs, however he will not have the same looses, However while it might provide issues for the further Valdemar III, It will however maybe also solve the problem for further generations.

Intersting I look forward to it.

What to do with Hamburg and Lübeck is one of the biggest problem for me personally. While both are under Danish control at this point they do have some distinct characters, Hamburg first of all actually became A free Imperial city of the empire before it were given/conquered. While Lübeck is not bestowed this, they would when they were a part of the Empire again in 1227, so the ambition should still be there.

I can see your point

Personally I am a staunch believe in that to get a more powerful Denmark it need to foster a larger Urban population earlier on, and not end up with just Copenhagen. Hamburg and Lübeck are prime candidates to be an inspiration as such for the King of Denmark aslong as they stay loyal. Which poses the dilemma I am standing in at the moment, while the Hanseatic league is butterflied away. What should the king do to the two cities, personally my train of thought is to make them free cities of the Kingdom, I am however worried if that would weaken the Danish kingdoms too much.

I think you underestimate Ribe and Schleswig town. Ribe was a pretty major city until Schleswig was cut off from Denmark, while Schleswig town increased irrelavance was caused by partition of Schleswig-Holstein between Oldenburg and Gottorp. Without the this partition Ribe will stay a major trading city, because Kongeåen allow it to be a export port for Jutish goods to Western Europe. Shcleswig town position at the Eider and Slien allow made it a good hub between the Baltic and North Sea, which was the reason Hedeby was also so important.

I think a likely model are that the Danish soimply use his position to make important trading cities into Royal Cities/Kongestæder (a Danish version of the imperial cities, as a kind of expanded version of OTL Købsstæder), cities whose burghers answer directly to the king instead of to the kings vassals. While this will likely create trouble later (15th century), it could serve the king as a way to sideline his vassals in the 13-14th century.

Also a interesting aspect with the Valdemaran Empire surviving, we could likely see Danish instead of Saxon/Low German turn into the Baltic lingua franca.The result of this will likely push the creation of the merchant town of the Baltic will end up speaking Danish. So we may see OTL Baltic Germans end up Danish speakers, this may together with the influx of the Swedish settlers push a very large minority or even a small majority of Danish/Scandinavians speakers in Estonia and Latvia. While Mecklenburg and Holstein stay Saxon speaking, we could see the burgher class become Danish speakers, just as the burghers in Schleswig ended up Low German speakers in OTL.

 

[arctic warrior]

Its started!
So you decided to have the coup unfold but get foiled by the kings entourage yet still with some important magnates killed.
Even if he didn't do it all by himself Valdemar II was quite an able commander and darn unlucky at Bornhöved.
Ferrante/Ferdinand the brother of Queen Berengaria/Bengerd was count of Flanders.

Danish population - according to Niels Lund Denmark during Viking times had a population of almost a million! The only area lacking in clearing the forest would be North Sjaelland; the kings hunting forest.
Just read in Weekendavisen last week that the deathblow to Schleswig was in fact Lübeck and the salt there being cheaper and better than that available in Denmark. Though Schleswig or perhaps even Hedeby were the models of commerce rights of Danish towns - købstadsrettigheder. Simply growth of Lübeck will kill off Schleswig at some point.
Lübeck was one of the major Hanse players during the wars with Denmark so just keeping that off your back and Hamburg with the large German hinterlands should help immensely. Encourage their growth and encourage their activities in other countries to further your own economic abilities. In a sense create a counter-Hanse even if the Hanse is only just in the making.
I agree you have to get trade flowing through the Kingdom and you have to increase internal trade by keeping the nobility off the market towns.
Keeping England and the Netherlands out of the Baltic isn't yet an issue - OTL wasn't till around 1600.

 

[Janprimus]

An interesting and original TL. Historically the Golden Bull of 1216 recognized Valdemar in possession and/or as suzerain of the Imperial Fiefs north of the Eider and Elbe. The Empire did not renounce anything, but they confirmed the existing status quo.

 

[Bastiram]

Intersting I look forward to it.

That's four "however" in one sentence... I should look at what I write some more

When I look at those populations statistics I think the 1 million are too low. The Black Plague on average cost around 1/3 of the population lives. Which gives us a pre-plague population of 1,2 million. But that was after a century of conflict in Denmark. So let's make a approxiomation of 1,5 million people in Denmark. Holstein, Ratzeburg and Mecklenburg had been relative peaceful and had been long settled by Valdemar II's time. So I think a good guess are that those three had around 0,7 million people. Pomerania on the other hand was newly settled under Valdemar II, and the Slavs had a significant lower population density than Danes and Germans. So I think 100K are a likely population at the time of Valdemar II. Rügen was a important political centre of the Slavs. So I think they likely had a relative high population in pre-Christian era. So around 70K seem likely for them. Estonia likely also lies in the low end, so let's say 50K.

Sounds reasonable, while I find 1,5 million people optimistic, @arctic warrior comment about nearly one million people during the viking age makes it more believable. Denmark never really recovered did it :/ ?

Having a larger initial Danish population will indeed help, in this TL because of the butterflies Denmark have opportunities to expand even more. What I find intriguing is that I actually have a source saying Valdemar II invaded Estonia in 1219 with 30.000-60.000 soldiers. while I still doubt it a Denmark that rules an area of about 2.4 million people are certainly quite powerful!

Danish population - according to Niels Lund Denmark during Viking times had a population of almost a million! The only area lacking in clearing the forest would be North Sjaelland; the kings hunting forest.

Am I the only person that find it amusing that the most densely part of modern Denmark, is one of the only areas with forest in the middle ages

A important aspect are that as long as Denmark doesn't fight domestic civil wars, it will have surplus population to use as settlers in Pomerania, Rügen , Estonia and other thinly populated areas of the east (Prussia). I could easily see Pommerania ending up Danish speaking, Rügen already used Danish law through the late medieval period. Mecklenburg and Holstein are already to densely populated by Saxons, for Danish to become dominant.

Agreed, did not know about the Danish law thing, exept that Rügen (the island in this case) is under the Archbisopric of Lund, do you know if Danish law extended to the mainland part of Rügen?

While I don't find a crusade in the Levant unlikely, I find a crusade against the Prussians more likely. Denmark and Poland was too my knowledge on friendly term at this point. So we may see Danes and Poles unite in a attack Prussian and other south Baltic tribes. I could also see the Danish king vassalise the Livonian knights simply by saving them after the indigenous uprising in 1236.

Denmark will certainly not send a crusade to the Holy lands, while prestige is nice, there is simply much better gains at home to be had.

I think you underestimate Ribe and Schleswig town. Ribe was a pretty major city until Schleswig was cut off from Denmark, while Schleswig town increased irrelavance was caused by partition of Schleswig-Holstein between Oldenburg and Gottorp. Without the this partition Ribe will stay a major trading city, because Kongeåen allow it to be a export port for Jutish goods to Western Europe. Shcleswig town position at the Eider and Slien allow made it a good hub between the Baltic and North Sea, which was the reason Hedeby was also so important.

True, Ribe is after all still in 1350 Denmarks second largest city/town with about 5.000 people. It will probably play a much greater role than OTL.

Just read in Weekendavisen last week that the deathblow to Schleswig was in fact Lübeck and the salt there being cheaper and better than that available in Denmark. Though Schleswig or perhaps even Hedeby were the models of commerce rights of Danish towns - købstadsrettigheder. Simply growth of Lübeck will kill off Schleswig at some point.

I would argue that if Denmark is able to foster a proper urbanization of its society, resulting in more small cities in the Danish isles, and on the coast of the Baltic. That while Schleswig won't gain near the prominince of say Lübeck, the quicker transport using the Eider river and the long fjord. And the increased trade will make Schleswig to be important enough to be one of the premier cities of Slesvig.

I think a likely model are that the Danish soimply use his position to make important trading cities into Royal Cities/Kongestæder (a Danish version of the imperial cities, as a kind of expanded version of OTL Købsstæder), cities whose burghers answer directly to the king instead of to the kings vassals. While this will likely create trouble later (15th century), it could serve the king as a way to sideline his vassals in the 13-14th century.

Actually really like the term Kongestæder/Kronstæder. Yes indeed the idea to keep the Imperial free city is to keep them out of the hand of troublesome vassals. I also think it will help with Urbanization of the society (the king seeing the income from cities, compared to rural areas) Though I am unsure why it would bring trouble in 15th century ?

Also a interesting aspect with the Valdemaran Empire surviving, we could likely see Danish instead of Saxon/Low German turn into the Baltic lingua franca.The result of this will likely push the creation of the merchant town of the Baltic will end up speaking Danish. So we may see OTL Baltic Germans end up Danish speakers, this may together with the influx of the Swedish settlers push a very large minority or even a small majority of Danish/Scandinavians speakers in Estonia and Latvia. While Mecklenburg and Holstein stay Saxon speaking, we could see the burgher class become Danish speakers, just as the burghers in Schleswig ended up Low German speakers in OTL.

Is Danish prominent enough at the point, i know that later Danish society it were French > German > Danish. Or is that not the case at this point?

Keeping England and the Netherlands out of the Baltic isn't yet an issue - OTL wasn't till around 1600.

Just in time when the Danish and Swedish rivalry reached its zenith !

 

[Jürgen]

Sounds reasonable, while I find 1,5 million people optimistic, @arctic warrior comment about nearly one million people during the viking age makes it more believable. Denmark never really recovered did it :/ ?

We need to remember that before the Black Plague the climate of Denmark was hotter, we have seen indications of wine production in early medieval Denmark. So the small ice age following the Black Plague simply lowered Denmark's maximum population with existing agriculture technics.

Having a larger initial Danish population will indeed help, in this TL because of the butterflies Denmark have opportunities to expand even more. What I find intriguing is that I actually have a source saying Valdemar II invaded Estonia in 1219 with 30.000-60.000 soldiers. while I still doubt it a Denmark that rules an area of about 2.4 million people are certainly quite powerful!

Yes I think further expansion under Valdemar II and Valdemar III will be likely.

Agreed, did not know about the Danish law thing, exept that Rügen (the island in this case) is under the Archbisopric of Lund, do you know if Danish law extended to the mainland part of Rügen?

The Principality of Rügen included more or less pre-Napoleonic Swedish Pomerania. Danish law code was used in all of it.

Denmark will certainly not send a crusade to the Holy lands, while prestige is nice, there is simply much better gains at home to be had.

''

Good it would be a waste.

I would argue that if Denmark is able to foster a proper urbanization of its society, resulting in more small cities in the Danish isles, and on the coast of the Baltic. That while Schleswig won't gain near the prominince of say Lübeck, the quicker transport using the Eider river and the long fjord. And the increased trade will make Schleswig to be important enough to be one of the premier cities of Slesvig.

I agree, I think we should mostly see Ribe and Schleswig as transportation/trading huib. Lübeck on the other hand are the major producer of salt in the region. Which are why Lübeck will likely be among the two most important cities of the Danish Empire. I could Falsterbo grow into the other one. Copenhagen on the other hand will likely not be very important before the 15th century, simply because the lack of a real Danish navy.

Actually really like the term Kongestæder/Kronstæder. Yes indeed the idea to keep the Imperial free city is to keep them out of the hand of troublesome vassals. I also think it will help with Urbanization of the society (the king seeing the income from cities, compared to rural areas) Though I am unsure why it would bring trouble in 15th century ?

Mostly because they will create a strong Burgher estate, which will mean that the king will have to make a hard balance act between noble and burgher estate. Of course having to balance these two actors, will give the peasant estate greater opportunity too. While this may give Denmark some benefit in early modern period, that the nobility are less strong, it will make it harder for the king to push his policies.

Is Danish prominent enough at the point, i know that later Danish society it were French > German > Danish. Or is that not the case at this point?

French only grew to importance as a European lingua franca in the 17th century. At this point I would say that neither "Danish" (in truth all Scandinavian languages) or Saxon dominated the Baltic yet, but the post-Valdemaran strife in Denmark allowed Saxon to come to dominate. Here the Danes are the dominant power, and Denmark have a surplus of settlers. So Danish have the opportunity to become the Lingua Franca of the Baltic, as Saxon became in OTL. Saxon speaking areas of the Baltic coastline will likely be limited to Mecklenburg and Wagria. Of course inland like in Poland, Brandenburg and Silesia we will likely see Saxon be the mercantile Lingua Franca, but at coastal cities Danish will be languages the local traders use.

 

[Bastiram]

We need to remember that before the Black Plague the climate of Denmark was hotter, we have seen indications of wine production in early medieval Denmark. So the small ice age following the Black Plague simply lowered Denmark's maximum population with existing agriculture technics.

That's true, hopefully a more urbanized Denmark is capable of introducing improved farming methods earlier than OTL.

I agree, I think we should mostly see Ribe and Schleswig as transportation/trading huib. Lübeck on the other hand are the major producer of salt in the region. Which are why Lübeck will likely be among the two most important cities of the Danish Empire. I could Falsterbo grow into the other one. Copenhagen on the other hand will likely not be very important before the 15th century, simply because the lack of a real Danish navy.

Makes sense, one of my worries to a degree is the very much southern focus at the moment (though it really is a good thing, only nitpicking at the moment). Valdemar II is spending his time in Vordingborg, and while it is not the capital and it won't be, I think at this point of the TL there is some pull to have a more southern placed capital.

For historical reasons I am already set upon a placement of the Danish Capital, but to get that in order I really need the Sound toll introduced earlier than 1429. While not necessary it would definitely help. However I am of the opinion that the Sound Toll need to be introduced because of the lack of money, something that is really not a problem at the moment for Valdemar II.

I was thinking of introducing a professional army, which the Danish King could fund via the Sound Toll, but really not sure of the viability of it. Even though there are instances of medieval professional armies.

Mostly because they will create a strong Burgher estate, which will mean that the king will have to make a hard balance act between noble and burgher estate. Of course having to balance these two actors, will give the peasant estate greater opportunity too. While this may give Denmark some benefit in early modern period, that the nobility are less strong, it will make it harder for the king to push his policies.

While a strong Burgher Estate might be troublesome, I think that having two Estates that are powerful is beneficial compared to OTL were Denmark only had one strong estate. But something to take into consideration indeed.

 

[Jürgen]

That's true, hopefully a more urbanized Denmark is capable of introducing improved farming methods earlier than OTL.

I don't think this will happen, but remember the Danish neighbours are just as weaken. Danish medieval dominance will build on the creation of a strong state controlling a large territory.

Makes sense, one of my worries to a degree is the very much southern focus at the moment (though it really is a good thing, only nitpicking at the moment). Valdemar II is spending his time in Vordingborg, and while it is not the capital and it won't be, I think at this point of the TL there is some pull to have a more southern placed capital.

Denmark didn't really get a capital before the 15th century. I think we will see that continue with the Danish king travelling his realm between different royal castles.

For historical reasons I am already set upon a placement of the Danish Capital, but to get that in order I really need the Sound toll introduced earlier than 1429. While not necessary it would definitely help. However I am of the opinion that the Sound Toll need to be introduced because of the lack of money, something that is really not a problem at the moment for Valdemar II.

I was thinking it was impossible, but when it got me thinking. The main easy sources of income in this period would be the Lübeck salt trade and the Falsterbo Skaane Market, where the herring was sold, without the Hanseatic League the Danish king will dominate both, he can strengthen his hold on Skaane Market by fortify Falsterbo, this together with Danish merchants control of the Baltic trade, result in the king setting up a earlier fleet and begin tax people entering the Baltic through the Sound. This could serve as model for Copenhagen or Elsinore turning into the Danish capital in the 14th century.

I was thinking of introducing a professional army, which the Danish King could fund via the Sound Toll, but really not sure of the viability of it. Even though there are instances of medieval professional armies.

I lean toward no. I think Denmark will ruin with a feudal army system as in OTL. Even with earlier Sound Dues and money from salt and herring, the money are much better given out on building fortification than having a permanent standing army in this period. The king will have his personal guard, but it will be won't be enough to be an army, but in case of war, he will call on his vassals, likely with the burghers giving him access to a navy.

 

[Bastiram]

After the attack on Lyø, Valdemar II returned to his holdings in Vordingborg, on southern Sjælland, sending a message to Henry Borwin II, the lord of Mecklenburg, to gather his forces and arrest his southern neighbor the Count of Schwerin. However Valdemar II have not realised that the abduction plan were a part of a larger plot against his dominion of northern Germany. In early June, Count Adolf IV von Schaunburg crossed the Elbe River from Stade towards Pinneberg, with 3.000 men, a few days later Count Henry I of Schwerin moves from Boizenburg towards Ratzeburg, with 1.500 men.

With Count Adolf IV being welcomed back and not seen as a conquer he moves his army southeast towards Hamburg, however they are met by closed gates, the city have stayed loyal to Valdemar II. The same sight is met by Count Henry I at Lübeck, his army now numbering 2.000 being bolstered by the men of Ratzeburg. In late June both armies merges near the town of Segelberg, they are marching towards the border town of Rensborg, if they can successfully take the castle, they can stop an eventually army from Slesvig, from crossing into Holstein. In the last days of June Henry Borwin II Lord of Mecklenburg invades the Danish controlled Rostock, something he claims as rightfully his, the invasion is successfully with most of the area falling under his control the following two weeks; however, the Danish garrison in Rostock are prepared for a siege

Valdemar II arriving in Slesvig, to gather an army, opens the start of July; His Marsk Johannes Ebbesen is doing the same on Sjælland. With Valdemar finally realizing the scale of the rebellion, In the middle of July Prince Vitslav I starts preparation to field his own army, having gotten orders from Valdemar II to gather his own men, but also the men from Pomerania. At the same time the combined army of Adolf IV and Henry I have arrived at Rensborg, their combined forces are now numbering about 8.000 with men from Holstein bringing up the numbers. However, Rensborg is a castle located in the middle of the Eider River and in the castle; Valdemar II is encamped with 2.500 men. The castle is in Danish hands and are unlikely to change. It is however a natural choke point if Valdemar wants to retake Holstein from Slesvig, so the two counts are happy with the standstill, as they are now in control of everything south of the Eider river, except Lübeck and Hamburg. As July is ending 2.000 men from Northern Slesvig arrives to reinforce Valdemar II.

As summer reaches autumn the rebellion have hit a stalemate, except in the southeast were no army yet have challenged Henry Borwin II, however an attack on Rostock had been repulsed by the garrison, meanwhile from Sjælland 4.000 men and 2.000 from Nørrejylland arrives in southern Slesvig. At the same time, 1.000 men from Dithmarschen joined the army of the two counts.

In October, Rostock falls to Henry Borwin II as the garrison is starved and overwhelmed by the superior numbers of the lord of Mecklenburg’s forces. However Henry Borwin II do not have much time to celebrate, as his scouts informs him that Prince Vitslav I have crossed the border of between the Principality of Rügen and the Duchy of Mecklenburg. Henry Borwin II lets his troops rest while he awaits the Army of Prince Vitslav I.

On the 20th of October battle is joined between the army of Henry Borwin II, some 4.000 men and Prince Vitslav I army of around 5.000. The first pitched battle of the Saxon rebellion is arguable between to two most experienced field commanders of the war. The battle drags out, as neither side are capable of breaking up the opposing sites infantry formations; as such both armies withdraw as the sun sets. The next day, the armies again battle it out, however Prince Vitslav I’s succeeds in breaking the left flank of Henry Borwin II’s forces, and the Wendish cavalry manages to ride most of the fleeing infantry down. While a victory for Prince Vitslav I, the opposing army manages to safely retreat the rest of their forces, and while badly mauled, and in no position to challenge the Army of Vitslav I, it is still in the field.

In early November, Johannes Ebbesen secretly moves most of the Danish army to Schleswig on the eastern coast, here he embarks them on ships and land them in Holstein at the Kieler Förde, south of the Eider River, unknown to the two counts. Valdemar II realising that the Holy Roman Emperor, might intervene while the armies are in winter camp have decided to try to end the rebellion with a decisive battle. However not looking forward to crossing the swamp like Eider River, he decides to use his capabilities to move his army by sea; it does however leave Rensborg in a vulnerable position. The manoeuvre is successful and the two counts is taken by near complete surprise, however they have enough warning to set up the army, the field of battle they have no say in though, they are stuck between Rensborg and the Danish army.

The following battle is story of brutality, with the Saxon army incapable of retreating, and with the Danish one in a vulnerable position if they are forced to retreat. Both armies are near identical strength about just shy of 10.000 each, nevertheless the Saxon force have a much larger amount of cavalry compared to the Danish army. Which makes the first part of the battle a desperate struggle for the Danish army to keep the Saxon one contained and not get overrun by the enemy cavalry. The battle ended when Valdemar II judged his timing superbly and send out the Danish Heavy cavalry from Rensborg, having retained it in Rensborg not only for logistical reasons, but also for tactical ones. As the Heavy cavalry hammers into the of the Saxon infantry, the Dithmarschen men are the first to break, as the Saxon formation evaporates, the battle turn from fighting to butchery. Count Henry I is slain on the field, and Count Adolf IV is taken prisoner.

In late November Henry Borwin II crosses the Elbe into the Holy Roman Empire, realizing with the shattering of the two counts army the rebellion is over, not expecting any leniency from Valdemar II, he chooses exile over imprisonment.

Comments:

About the nubmers, in the battle of Börnhoved in 1227 between Valdemar II and Adolf IV is supposedly between 14.000 Danes and 12.000 saxons, however the numbers might have been just half of that. Obviously, that is quite a different time than my battle of 1223. In 1223, Adolf IV is leading much the same coalition against Valdemar, he is however lacking troops from Lübeck and Hamburg, as they at this point is still supporting Denmark. However, the Denmark he is going up against is capable of fielding a much larger army than in OTL 1227. As in it’s not broke from ransom and affected by inaction due to the hostages taken. Further more I had the Dithmarschen join Holstein from the get go, and not in the middle of the battle.

 

[Bastiram]

The first order of Valdemar II after the defeat of the Saxon rebellion was to delegate the rebel fiefs to more loyal men , his grandson Nils Nielsen, received the entirety of the county of Schwerin, however it still answers to the Duke of Mecklenburg. The lands of Rostock were wrested from the Duchy of Mecklenburg, and given over to the Principality of Rügen, as a reward to Prince Vitslav I, for his support of the war. In response to the loss of Rostock and associated lands, in exchange the Duchy of Mecklenburg received the County of Ratzeburg. Hamburg gets its right as a free city acknowledge, likewise Lübeck are given the same rights as Hamburg. Both get the rights of Kronstæder, a step above the købstader which answer to the local Lord, a Kronstad answers directly to the king.

The vacant fiefs are given to Valdemars young sons, the half-brothers of Valdemar, the elected Prince of Denmark. As such, Erik the eldest is made Duke of Mecklenburg, with Prince Vitslav I as regent until he is of age. Abel, is given the Danish duchy of Slesvig as his fief, here Peder Strangesen of Kalundborg will act as regent. Valdemar II’s youngest son is given the County of Holstein and the land of Dithmarschen. Which is to be a part of the new Duchy of Holstein. Christoffer's regent will be his mother Berengaria of Portugal Furthermore, Adolph IV now a prisoner in Vordingborg, agrees to a marriage between Christoffer and his own young daughter Matilda, when both are of age.

1224 would be a year of peace compared to the previous year. Valdemar II carried out further reforms, for instance the offering of land to Saxon farmers is to a degree curtailed, and instead Danish peasants will be offered land instead, while it does not stop the immigration of Saxon settlers it does turn it down to a trickle compared to the amount of Danes that will arrive in Rügen, Pomerania and Estonia. While Holstein is Saxon, and it is too late to stop, Mecklenburg from turning into a Saxon populated duchy. It is, however an effective counter in the lands of Rügen and Pomerania. Furthermore Valdemar II sends a letter to Pope Honorius III, to get the areas under the Archbishopric of Bremen, transferred to either Lund or Cammin, to avoid having members of the clergy be supporters of a direct rival of the kingdom. Also in the letter to the pope, there is a confirmation of an earlier promise to go on another crusade, however, due to the potential for warfare and unrest in the Danish Kingdom, Valdemar II request that it will be something closer to home. There are after all still pagans on the Baltic coast.

______________________________________________________

A smaller update, the last part seems to be a harder undertaking than wrapping up the rebellion, next up will be focused on more international matters compared to national.
On another note gonna defend my bachelor the 24th next week, so only one more small update until then.

Edit: mistakes

 

[Jürgen]

Placing the Danish princes as dukes of the rebellious areas are a good idea. First it legitimise the Danish claim to the area, future dukes will have a hard time changing to the Emperors side, because they have gotten their right to the duchies from the Danish king. Next it force the half brothers to be loyal as a conflict with Valdemar III risk that the "rightful" claimant to the duchies invades in case of civil strife. Vistav have also been rewarded showing the Danish king remember loyalty. Of course the potential troublemaker are Abel, he have the least to lose in a conflict with his brothers. Of course I think Abel will avoid creating problems, if Valdemar III end up surviving, but if he dies I could see Erik and him fighting over the crown.


Also good luck.