AHQ: How can Russia revitalize itself?

I'm currently on a Russian history reading kick and working on an alternate history where I want to give Russia something of a redemption story, as it seems like Russia has kind of gotten the shit end of the stick throughout history. I believe there's something of a lens of historical inevitability around Russian history, saddled with unproductive soil, without the civic traditions of Western Europe, subject to invasion by the Mongols, but by all rights, Russia has the opportunity to be a truly great power. The major defects within Russian history I see are:

1: Serfdom- Serfs were always going to be more unproductive pound-for-pound than free laborers, serfdom limited economic opportunity for the Russian peasantry and for Russia overall as it limited the overall size of the creative class. And even though the Emancipation of the Serfs did have positive impacts, not providing the serfs with substantial amounts of land, plus saddling them with the redemptions payments, imposed a pretty harsh burden on their ability to become truly engaged citizens.

2: The inability to foster a stake in the system- Russia's system of governance seems to have had an extremely hard time trying to get its various social classes to engage with the system. The nobility wanted to protect their privileges and attempts at reforms were often seen as threatening those privileges. The peasants rejected attempts to interfere in what they saw as "their lives" with even modern farming strategies or technologies being rejected.

3: Lack of capital- Which kind of derives from the above two problems. Because of poor utilization of labor and the poor quality of the soil, Russia was never able to generate the kind of capital it needed, until the late nineteenth century French loans, to really bootstrap itself into the modern age. Partly it's sheer size hampered it as well, any investments would have to be on a colossally bigger scale than anything done in Prussia, Austria, France, or even the United States.

Feel free to tell me I'm wrong or to improve on my interpretations, my knowledge of Russian and Soviet history is still very surface level. But, what I'm trying to figure out, is where the course of Russian history could have been corrected? When could the lives of the serfs be improved? Could Russia have industrialized earlier? Could they have avoided the terrorist battles of the 1870s and 1880s? Is there a path for Russia to reform itself into something more resembling the British constitutional monarchy or at the very least, the Imperial German system?
 
2: The inability to foster a stake in the system- Russia's system of governance seems to have had an extremely hard time trying to get its various social classes to engage with the system. The nobility wanted to protect their privileges and attempts at reforms were often seen as threatening those privileges. The peasants rejected attempts to interfere in what they saw as "their lives" with even modern farming strategies or technologies being rejected.
I would argue with the bolded part.
"Alexander Zamaraev, a peasant elder in a land commune near the small town of Totma in Vologda province in the Russian far north [...] As a village he was one of those trusted to deliver judgements in cases of dispute. He kept up with new ideas in the Selskaya zhizn ('Rural Life') journal to improve his agriculture techniques. Nothing is more misleading than the idea that all Russian peasants were poor, illiterate an ill-informed. In fact the Russian Empire while undoubtedly having tens of millions of destitute peasants, had a diverse society that included many like Zamaraev who expected to turn an annual profit however small it may be."
"BLOOD ON THE SNOW" Robert Service, ch.2 pg 13-14

While the Russian Empire certainly had peasant who refused change there were many others who were willing to embrace modernity and make profit if they can.

I would add as a very important problem the conservative leadership who didn't make the necessary steps to modernize and solve Russia's core problems.
Feel free to tell me I'm wrong or to improve on my interpretations, my knowledge of Russian and Soviet history is still very surface level. But, what I'm trying to figure out, is where the course of Russian history could have been corrected? When could the lives of the serfs be improved? Could Russia have industrialized earlier? Could they have avoided the terrorist battles of the 1870s and 1880s? Is there a path for Russia to reform itself into something more resembling the British constitutional monarchy or at the very least, the Imperial German system?
Having Alexander II not being assassinated and the following emperors being more liberal would solve a big number of issues in the Russian Empire, however if you want it to arrive to the level of Germany or Britain you need a POD much earlier than that.
 
Last edited:
Russia has the opportunity to be a truly great power.
A question as far as this in general, without getting at the specifics of serfdom or economics: What do you think "a truly great power" Russia would look like as opposed to OTL Russia?

Because there's a difference between a Russia where the lot of the average Russian is better than OTL, and a more powerful Russia - one is not necessarily the basis for the other.

Edited: Population numbers for Russia for a substantial part of its history are not especially high considering its land area - The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers gives 17.5 million for Russia in 1700 and 37 million for 1800, for example. (compared to France's 19 and 28 million respectively), with a note that the margin for error could be "several millions".

This is one of the factors that went into how Russia was as it was OTL though - a thinly populated, land rich, specie-poor (if my understanding is correct) society striving to maintain a strong military is going to see compromises somewhere no matter what.
 
Last edited:
Having Alexander II not being assassinated and the following emperors being more liberal would solve a big number of issues in the Russian Empire,
sigh, I wish the mythos about the liberal godsend Alexander II would just die already. Alexander II was- to put it mildly- an idiot. He basically orchestrated his own assassination. Given the sheer number of attempts on his life before one finally succeeded- including a bomb thrown into the Winter Palace where half the imperial family was gathered for dinner (the only reason they weren't in the dining room when it went off was because the emperor was late).- I suspect there'll be another and another until they succeed. How? By making universities open to everyone, and then the students spending more times in the coffee shops than in the classes, LARPing that they were in Paris 1789/1830.

I'm not saying the system in Russia could've worked indefinitely, but IMO Alex II was basically someone who took a hammer to an old wind-up watch because he wanted to fix it.

@Valena @alexmilman can correct me, but that's the general gist I get of Alex II
 
sigh, I wish the mythos about the liberal godsend Alexander II would just die already. Alexander II was- to put it mildly- an idiot. He basically orchestrated his own assassination. Given the sheer number of attempts on his life before one finally succeeded- including a bomb thrown into the Winter Palace where half the imperial family was gathered for dinner (the only reason they weren't in the dining room when it went off was because the emperor was late).- I suspect there'll be another and another until they succeed. How? By making universities open to everyone, and then the students spending more times in the coffee shops than in the classes, LARPing that they were in Paris 1789/1830.

I'm not saying the system in Russia could've worked indefinitely, but IMO Alex II was basically someone who took a hammer to an old wind-up watch because he wanted to fix it.

@Valena @alexmilman can correct me, but that's the general gist I get of Alex II
I'm not talking about what he could've done better to not get assassinated, I'm just saying that he was better for the Empire long term than some conservative idiots we got with previous and following emperors.
 
I would argue with the bolded part.
"Alexander Zamaraev, a peasant elder in a land commune near the small town of Totma in Vologda province in the Russian far north [...] As a village he was one of those trusted to deliver judgements in cases of dispute. He kept up with new ideas in the Selskaya zhizn ('Rural Life') journal to improve his agriculture techniques. Nothing is more misleading than the idea that all Russian peasants were poor, illiterate an ill-informed. In fact the Russian Empire while undoubtedly having tens of millions of destitute peasants, had a diverse society that included many like Zamaraev who expected to turn an annual profit however small it may be."
"BLOOD ON THE SNOW" Robert Service, ch.2 pg 13-14

While the Russian Empire certainly had peasant who refused change there were many others who were willing to embrace modernity and make profit if they can.

I would add as a very important problem the conservative leadership who didn't make the necessary steps to modernize and solve Russia's core problems.
Definitely not trying to imply that the Russian peasantry was ignorant or backward or anything of the sort. I can't quote any specific anecdotes, but I feel like I remember instances of Russian peasants rejecting mechanization or improved crop-rotation or consolidation of communal strips. And it definitely isn't because they saw them as necessarily bad or were ignorant of the benefits, but they rejected nobles or aristocrats coming to their farms and telling them how to run their farms.
A question as far as this in general, without getting at the specifics of serfdom or economics: What do you think "a truly great power" Russia would look like as opposed to OTL Russia?

This is one of the factors that went into how Russia was as it was OTL though - a thinly populated, land rich, specie-poor (if my understanding is correct) society striving to maintain a strong military is going to see compromises somewhere no matter what.
Poor phrasing on my part, Russia definitely has been a "Great Power" i.e. influential in the global geopolitics and the international order. I'm trying to find a way that Russia could do it without so much of the pain and suffering its people have had to endure. Russia has so many advantages, huge amounts of land, access to strategic resources (oil, natural gas, precious metals, coal, iron, titanium, uranium), a large population etc. But they've had to suffer through a hidebound and backward leadership, chaotic socioeconomic movements, and of course a number of external torments which aren't their fault.
 
Makes sense.

I think at least part of it is that - and I am not sufficiently well versed in this to go past the outlines - serfdom was originally there because having the lords and gentry (as well as the state) have a reliably present work force in the first place as opposed to them running for the frontiers was a major concern.

Addressing that would take more than just "but what if Ivan the Terrible wasn't an awful person and possibly a very overrated ruler?" (and the same for Peter the Great), and that is where I'm not sure what means Russia's rulers had to address that.
 
I'm not talking about what he could've done better to not get assassinated, I'm just saying that he was better for the Empire long term than some conservative idiots we got with previous and following emperors.

sigh, I wish the mythos about the liberal godsend Alexander II would just die already. Alexander II was- to put it mildly- an idiot. He basically orchestrated his own assassination. Given the sheer number of attempts on his life before one finally succeeded- including a bomb thrown into the Winter Palace where half the imperial family was gathered for dinner (the only reason they weren't in the dining room when it went off was because the emperor was late).- I suspect there'll be another and another until they succeed. How? By making universities open to everyone, and then the students spending more times in the coffee shops than in the classes, LARPing that they were in Paris 1789/1830.

I'm not saying the system in Russia could've worked indefinitely, but IMO Alex II was basically someone who took a hammer to an old wind-up watch because he wanted to fix it.

@Valena @alexmilman can correct me, but that's the general gist I get of Alex II

I absolutely agree with Kellan, regarding the myth about Alexander II ( which vaguely reminds me of the rumors about his contemporary and " liberal " Frederick III ) the real problem with Alex II and his policies is that he was mostly basing them on nothing, while creating a lot of enemies in multiple areas of society, rather what Russia really needed was for Nicholas I to succeed successor like Alex III who continued his industrialization policies, possibly avoiding the Otl wars ( mainly the Russian Turkish War 1878 ) and gradually continued to introduce "liberal" ideas but adapted to the local situation, so as to reduce/contain possible frictions, certainly the authoritarian style of government will not be very nice, but at least it will allow Russia to have good foundations both in the economic, industrial, social and cultural fields ( both Nicholas I and Alex III were promoters of education and public health ) and also logistical ( since they gave a lot of importance to the development of the first local railway network )
 
Last edited:
The problem with Alex II and his policies is that he was mostly basing them on nothing, while creating a lot of enemies in multiple areas of society, rather what Russia really needed was for Nicholas I to succeed successor like Alex III who continued his industrialization policies, possibly avoiding the Otl wars ( mainly the Russian Turkish War 1878 ) and gradually continued to introduce "liberal" ideas but adapted to the local situation, so as to reduce/contain possible frictions
I wouldn't say that Alex III did much good to the empire, conservative figures is not what you need and at some point serfdom needs to be abolished which Al III wouldn't do.
 
I wouldn't say that Alex III did much good to the empire, conservative figures is not what you need and at some point serfdom needs to be abolished which Al III wouldn't do.


Normally I would agree with you, but the Russian situation was different from other places, one cannot expect to use a policy that works elsewhere ( for various reasons ) and believe that even in contexts different from those where it developed, it can produce the same results, just see for example the concept of parliamentarism in Italy, France and the United Kingdom, which, despite starting from similar bases, has brought about important local differences, I also hadn't finished writing my comment yet
 
Normally I would agree with you, but the Russian situation was different from other places, one cannot expect to use a policy that works elsewhere ( for various reasons ) and believe that even in contexts different from those where it developed, it can produce the same results, just see for example the concept of parliamentarism in Italy, France and the United Kingdom, which, despite starting from similar bases, has brought about important local differences.
Keeping serfdom isn't a positive thing either and figures like Nicky I and Alex III would do everything to remain absolute rulers which has very negative collateral effects.
 
Look at Russian leadership.
Russia needs a good leader who puts the good of Russia ahead of that own needs and desires and can construct a institutions that do the same.
 
I'm currently on a Russian history reading kick and working on an alternate history where I want to give Russia something of a redemption story, as it seems like Russia has kind of gotten the shit end of the stick throughout history. I believe there's something of a lens of historical inevitability around Russian history, saddled with unproductive soil, without the civic traditions of Western Europe, subject to invasion by the Mongols, but by all rights, Russia has the opportunity to be a truly great power. The major defects within Russian history I see are:

1: Serfdom- Serfs were always going to be more unproductive pound-for-pound than free laborers,

This opinion was not universally shared. For example, during the work of the Codification Commission of CII the merchants had been asking for the right to have serfs because the serfs-managers were more reliable and effective than their hired counterparts and the same was said about the masters in the manufactures.
As a side note, during the Pugachev Rebellion the serf-workers of many Ural manufactures were not joining and even resisting the rebels because both the Cossacks and Bashkirs had been destroying the plants and mines thus depriving their workers of the means to sustain themselves.

serfdom limited economic opportunity for the Russian peasantry and for Russia overall as it limited the overall size of the creative class.

An overwhelming majority of the Russian peasantry did not have too much of the economic opportunity both during and after the serfdom because a “creative class” was always quite small in any social group. However, a reasonably intelligent owner usually was not preventing the entrepreneurship-inclined serfs because their obrok (cash) was going to be higher, or even much higher than what he could get from barschina (a regulated number of days the serfs had to work on the owner’s property).

And some of these creative serfs had been doing impressively well. For example, one of the counts Sheremetiev (one who married his former serf woman) was “collecting” the millionaires serfs (“millionaires” could be exaggeration but definitely very rich) just for the fun of having them: they were conducting their businesses but he was refusing to take their payoffs considering situation amusing. One of them got a release for a timely presented barrel of the oysters.

So the whole system was quite complicated.

And even though the Emancipation of the Serfs did have positive impacts, not providing the serfs with substantial amounts of land, plus saddling them with the redemptions payments, imposed a pretty harsh burden on their ability to become truly engaged citizens.
This is, again, a stereotype which does not make too much sense (no offense to you, this is what everyone was taught to believe). The land legally belonged to the land owners so the government could not provide them with something which it did not own. The most that it could do was to arrange for a mandatory provisioning the serfs with a part of the landowner’s land for which a landowner had to be compensated. To make this easier to the peasants, the government paid off the landowners (cheating them in a process) so the peasants had to repay debt to the government over 40 years at 5% annual. “Saddling” notion is silly because government simply did not have money to absorb the debt to the landowners and the rest was a byproduct of the low efficiency of the majority of fully free peasants who almost immediately split into three groups, bottom, middle, and top with the relevant problems and, at the end, the bottom and lower middle group had unpaid part of their debt forgiven
To address the land point, the government established a system of purchasing an extra land which the owners (already cheated by the state and short of money) had been selling and this land was sold exclusively to the peasant communities. Did not help much because population was growing faster and the “non-creative” majority kept sticking to the community model which was preventing increased productivity.

So blaming everything on the real or imaginable oppressors and social injustice is a simplest thing but how come that many members of the same class were doing reasonably well or very well?

I’m not even going into the issue of post-emancipation endemic drinking which hit hard not only the peasants but the Ural plants as well. Both conservative and liberal Russian literature of that period full of this subject. When most of your money are being spent on a booze, you’ll have problem with paying taxes even in the most advanced liberal society like the US. 😉


2: The inability to foster a stake in the system- Russia's system of governance seems to have had an extremely hard time trying to get its various social classes to engage with the system.
Really? In a bureaucracy-ruled country (by definition of NI) the social classes can’t avoid being heavily engaged with the system.
The nobility wanted to protect their privileges and attempts at reforms were often seen as threatening those privileges.

As with everything else, this was much more complicated. Most of the “service class” (bureaucracy, military and other state employees) were not hereditary nobility or nobility at all. Which privileges exactly are you talking about in RE post-emancipation? Serf-ownership was gone. The civic service was full of the people who were not nobles and many of those who were, became nobles just by virtue of raising to a certain rank in the service. Situation with the military was pretty much the same: the officers’ ranks had been full of the former kantonists and while AII abolished the institution, raising from the ranks was sufficiently common.

The landowners represented a small minority among the service class even in the early XIX but, of course, the government was reluctant to destroy them. Except that the Emancipation Reform had been formulated and implemented by the members of the noble class with the high-ranking people involved also being the landowners who seemingly did not care too much about their “privileges”, real or imaginable.

The peasants rejected attempts to interfere in what they saw as "their lives" with even modern farming strategies or technologies being rejected.
Besides the fact that their majority were not too smart, there was an objective reason for their conservatism. Community was working for their advantage by providing certain social back up, collective work, helping each other and easier way of communicating with the administration including collective responsibility for the taxes. A drawback was that the model required an equality of the land distribution by size and quality. As a result, each year a peasant family was getting a different set of the disjointed narrow land strips. There was no sense in using fertilizers because the next year these strips would belong to somebody else and, because population was growing, so was the number of families between which the land had to be divided and the strips were getting more narrow. Eventually going down to a size physically preventing use of the more advanced equipment even if there were money to buy it. Which, quite often, was not even the case because an average peasant could not afford it under the protective system and buying something for the whole community would not work due to the disputes regarding who is getting the stuff first, etc.
But getting out of that system required special legislation and its enforcement because a person who was getting out was taking with him a solid peace of the common land, etc.

3: Lack of capital- Which kind of derives from the above two problems. Because of poor utilization of labor and the poor quality of the soil, Russia was never able to generate the kind of capital it needed, until the late nineteenth century French loans, to really bootstrap itself into the modern age.

Interesting notion, taking into an account that most of the French loans went to the armaments and, sometimes to the railroads and other state programs. By the time Witte pushed these loans on a big scale during the reign of NII, the Russian manufacturing was already developing well attracting a lot of the foreign investments.

Besides nobility and peasants there was also a huge and fast growing class of those who were neither: capitalists of all “sizes” and types (bankers, industrialists, rural capitalists, merchants, etc.), “educated classes” (doctors, educators, engineers, lawyers, etc.), workers (industrial and not).

But the capital shortage was, indeed, a problem especially in the XVIII - XIX, due to the shortage of the credit institutions.
Partly it's sheer size hampered it as well, any investments would have to be on a colossally bigger scale than anything done in Prussia, Austria, France, or even the United States.
The size was big but this does not mean that the whole empire had to be developed on the same level: there were huge areas practically uninhabitable and some of the strategically important areas having noticeable shortage of the population. But the distances were, indeed, a killer.

Feel free to tell me I'm wrong or to improve on my interpretations, my knowledge of Russian and Soviet history is still very surface level. But, what I'm trying to figure out, is where the course of Russian history could have been corrected?

Corrected in which sense?
When could the lives of the serfs be improved?

Part of correction: absence of the countless wars during the XVIII - XIX century would remove some of the economic burden, etc. but OTOH, it would not improve international position and physical size of the Russian Empire so what is your priority?


Could Russia have industrialized earlier?
It was industrialized quite early. The problem was that by a number of reasons, which I can’t fully identify, its industry was not modernized in a timely fashion.
Could they have avoided the terrorist battles of the 1870s and 1880s?

Easily. Just start executing them after a speedy trial by the military courts with no options like exile or prison. To make process more effective, introduce the awards for delivering or pointing out whereabouts: according to the Marxism, the material interest is a mighty stimulating factor. And, yes. create a really effective political police apparatus and make it independent from the Interior Ministry and Ministry of Justice. 😉
Is there a path for Russia to reform itself into something more resembling the British constitutional monarchy or at the very least, the Imperial German system?
Why the British constitutional (AFAIK, Britain does not have a constitution) monarchy has to be an attractive example? OTOH, something similar to the German system was introduced in 1905.
 
I wouldn't say that Alex III did much good to the empire, conservative figures is not what you need and at some point serfdom needs to be abolished which Al III wouldn't do.
As a matter of fact, serious preparations to the emancipation started during the rule of arch-conservative NI and a partial reform was conducted by Kiselev. AIII, as a Grand Duke, was chairman of the commission working on the subject. So AII and his reform did not come out of a nowhere but he did what his father was afraid of: chose the seemingly obvious solution which eventually screwed up everybody.
On the top of that achievement he stuck with a wrong economic model which during his reign was killing development of the Russian manufacturing maintaining high unemployment and general misery. The only area of growth was railroad construction but, again, a chosen model was leading to the endemic corruption, government had been paying the RR companies for being inefficient and a big part of equipment had been imported instead of being produced domestically. For example, practically all money received from Alaska sale had been spent on buying the RR equipment.

AIII changed the course to protectionism and development of the Russian industry jumpstarted. Keeping country out of the questionable and quite stupid military engagements allowed to improve the finance and pave the way to a gold standard for the Russian ruble. So we have: booming economy, growing employment and general prosperity, first package of the labor laws, peace, absence of the genocidal activities (as during the reign of AII), and law and order (if somebody really wants to live in a terrorism ridden state, say so 😜). So “not much good” comparing to whom? Certainly not to any other ruler of the Romanov dynasty. Not that all his domestic policies were good but nonetheless.
 
Look at Russian leadership.
Russia needs a good leader who puts the good of Russia ahead of that own needs and desires and can construct a institutions that do the same.
It had this with Catherine the Great, but that was sadly not enough? The institutions corroded after she died?
 
Keeping serfdom isn't a positive thing either and figures like Nicky I and Alex III would do everything to remain absolute rulers which has very negative collateral effects.
AII, who emancipated them, was an absolute ruler as well (and a complete looser) and the first constitutional ruler, his grandson, hardly can be used as a convincing argument in favor of the constitutional rule in Russia. To make picture more complete, a liberal democratic government replacing him also proved to be quite bad to be replaced by even worse regime and, when this one was eventually gone and was replaced by a democratically elected pro-western liberal regime, it turned to be a complete disaster followed by an authoritarian regime. Can’t tell about you but it seems to me that all options had been tried and perhaps it would be better not to change anything to start with. 😜😜😜😜
 
AII, who emancipated them, was an absolute ruler as well (and a complete looser) and the first constitutional ruler, his grandson, hardly can be used as a convincing argument in favor of the constitutional rule in Russia. To make picture more complete, a liberal democratic government replacing him also proved to be quite bad to be replaced by even worse regime and, when this one was eventually gone and was replaced by a democratically elected pro-western liberal regime, it turned to be a complete disaster followed by an authoritarian regime. Can’t tell about you but it seems to me that all options had been tried and perhaps it would be better not to change anything to start with. 😜😜😜😜
I'm pretty sure that if you put Alex III or Nicky I instead of Nicky II they still would make Russia follow a similar path, they all will have problems with socialists, I'm doubtful that they wouldn't have some kind of Russification policies (Alex III had begun with some Russification policies) and I doubt they would prevent WW1, they might avoid some stuff Nicky II did but they won't solve Russia's problems.
Also Constitutional monarchy only on paper, the Tsar effectively held almost all of the power and the remaining power was the nobility.
 
Last edited:
I'm pretty sure that if you put Alex III or Nicky I instead of Nicky II they still would make Russia follow a similar path,
There was fundamental difference between NI and AIII: the first was slightly too bellicose and the second made it a fundamental principle of his reign to keep Russia out of the war so you being sure that both of them would behave the same way is neither here nor there.

they all will have problems with socialists,

The problem was not in their existence but in the way of dealing with them: AII failed, AIII put situation pretty much under control and with NI it is a question who would have problem with whom.

I'm doubtful that they wouldn't have some kind of Russification policies (Alex III had begun with some Russification policies) and I doubt they would prevent WW1,

This was extremely easy for anyone who is not a complete idiot.
they might avoid some stuff Nicky II did but they won't solve Russia's problems.
As I already mentioned, nobody managed to solve all Russian problems (and nobody composed a full list of them) but I doubt that there is a problem free state so this point is pretty much irrelevant.

Also Constitutional monarchy only on paper, the Tsar effectively held almost all of the power and the remaining power was the nobility.
Attempts to live without a monarchy altogether were not quite successful either so an assumption that having “true” constitutional monarchy (any monarchy with a constitution is constitutional by definition so your opinion on a precise scope of a monarch’s power is irrelevant and Britain is not an example because, AFAIK, it does not have a constitution) would produce different result is not based upon any serious factual foundation. As for the power of nobility, I’m getting tired of repeating explanations regarding the nobility (as a class) power in post-1905 RE.
 
As a matter of fact, serious preparations to the emancipation started during the rule of arch-conservative NI and a partial reform was conducted by Kiselev
Nicholas I had anti-serfdom tendencies but he didn't take any concrete action against it; the "reform" was just a proposal.
AIII, as a Grand Duke, was chairman of the commission working on the subject.
He was less than 18 years old at the time so this is very debatable.
So AII and his reform did not come out of a nowhere but he did what his father was afraid of: chose the seemingly obvious solution which eventually screwed up everybody.
How did Alexander II's reforms screw up everybody?
On the top of that achievement he stuck with a wrong economic model which during his reign was killing development of the Russian manufacturing maintaining high unemployment and general misery.
Could you illuminate me on what economic model he chose that prevented the developement of industries and brought terrible consequences on the Russians?
AIII changed the course to protectionism and development of the Russian industry jumpstarted. Keeping country out of the questionable and quite stupid military engagements allowed to improve the finance and pave the way to a gold standard for the Russian ruble
AFAIK most of the diplomatic efforts were made by Nikolay Girs but the credit went to Alexander III.
So we have: booming economy, growing employment and general prosperity, first package of the labor laws, peace, absence of the genocidal activities (as during the reign of AII)
You kind of forgot the wonderful, benefitting to the economy and bringer of prosperity Russian famine of 1891-2 and the horible treatement of Jews, with several pogroms as a consequence, which wasn't the case under Alexander II and its Russification policies weren't pleasant for the victims either.
So “not much good” comparing to whom? Certainly not to any other ruler of the Romanov dynasty. Not that all his domestic policies were good but nonetheless.
None of the Russian Tsar were wonderful to live under, Alex III was no exception.
There was fundamental difference between NI and AIII: the first was slightly too bellicose and the second made it a fundamental principle of his reign to keep Russia out of the war so you being sure that both of them would behave the same way is neither here nor there.
Nicholas would have a basically useless military and would make Russia perform even worse than IOTL.
Alex was convinced by Girs on its diplomatic stance, he might've done things differently but I see absolutely no one without the power of hindsight delay WW1 for much longer.
The problem was not in their existence but in the way of dealing with them: AII failed, AIII put situation pretty much under control and with NI it is a question who would have problem with whom.
Nicky and the other two were in significantly different situations, implementing the same policies as Alex III wouldn't work in Nicky's case and I would note that the famine of 1891-2 was an essential element for the Russian revolutions in 1905 and 1917 so I would disagree that he had everything under control.
This was extremely easy for anyone who is not a complete idiot.
The Russification policies or WW1?
In the case of the first, Alex III started with Russification policies so him not continuing further is very unlikely.
In the case of the latter no Russian Tsar would endlessly continue to appease Germany and Austria-Hungary, many factors are independent from the Russian Tsar and Russia cannot back down without looking like an idiot.
As I already mentioned, nobody managed to solve all Russian problems (and nobody composed a full list of them) but I doubt that there is a problem free state so this point is pretty much irrelevant.
They wouldn't manage to solve Russia's problems much better than Nicky II did.
Attempts to live without a monarchy altogether were not quite successful either
Can any Russian government be considered successful if you look at it that way?
so an assumption that having “true” constitutional monarchy (any monarchy with a constitution is constitutional by definition so your opinion on a precise scope of a monarch’s power is irrelevant and Britain is not an example because, AFAIK, it does not have a constitution) would produce different result is not based upon any serious factual foundation.
The Constitution can effectively be avoided entirely by the Tsar if he wants to.
As for the power of nobility, I’m getting tired of repeating explanations regarding the nobility (as a class) power in post-1905 RE.
The nobility definitely held much influence.
 
Nicholas I had anti-serfdom tendencies but he didn't take any concrete action against it; the "reform" was just a proposal.
Of course, it was a proposal because the issue was very complicated but the work was happening. And Kiselev’s reform did happen.
He was less than 18 years old at the time so this is very debatable.
What is debatable? That he was a chairman of this commission? You can “debate” it as much as you want but this is a fact.

How did Alexander II's reforms screw up everybody?
In one of the recent posts I explained this in some details so you can read it because I’m not going to cut and paste the same stuff. Plus, he followed the fashionable liberal theory of the free markets which was killing a possibility of building up the Russian manufacturing. The RR construction program was conducted in a wrong way with state supporting inefficiency (changed by Witte). The unnecessary Ottoman War had been run disastrously and the peace created huge international problems. Social problems are well-known because he was assassinated due to them but enough to say that the class which he presumably benefitted most (“educated” classes) thoroughly disliked him. And he so much lacked any talent that could not even arrange his own security against a small bunch of the extremists. Military reform would be great if it was not screwed up: during the war of 1877-78 Russian army had worse rifles than the Ottomans, artillery did not have proper shells and infantry used suicidal tactics. The Black Sea fleet was not created even if the Paris Treaty was repudiated after Franco-Prussian war, finances were in a terrible state with paper ruble worth (IIRC) being 20-30 silver kopecks. Probably I’m missing something.

Could you illuminate me on what economic model he chose that prevented the developement of industries and brought terrible consequences on the Russians?
Gladly. See above.

AFAIK most of the diplomatic efforts were made by Nikolay Girs but the credit went to Alexander III.
AIII got credit for appointing the right people. But according to Witte and Alexander’s own statements, he was against wars after participation in one. He choose Girs because he was an yes-man following the orders and relieving Alexander from the diplomatic routine.
You kind of forgot the wonderful, benefitting to the economy and bringer of prosperity Russian famine of 1891-2 and the horible treatement of Jews, with several pogroms as a consequence, which wasn't the case under Alexander II and its Russification policies weren't pleasant for the victims either.
I wrote quite clearly that not all his actions were good. Nobody pretended that he was an angel or genius and most of the rulers throughout the history were not. But by the end of his reign the empire was much better positioned internationally and economically than by the end of AII rule. So what is your point?

None of the Russian Tsar were wonderful to live under, Alex III was no exception.
This is a pretty much meaningless statement because it is always a question “for whom”. The Victorian Britain was not a wonderful place for everybody either, life under Nappy was great for some and a deadly experience for hundreds thousands, the German Empire also attracted a huge criticism and so did Austria, etc.
Nicholas would have a basically useless military and would make Russia perform even worse than IOTL.
What NI would have if he lived in the early XX is a big question because he would be brought up in the different environment. So this is just a baseless speculation.
Alex was convinced by Girs on its diplomatic stance, he might've done things differently but I see absolutely no one without the power of hindsight delay WW1 for much longer.
Your visions are, of course, interesting but they are neither here nor there. Witte, who knew him slightly better than you or me, wrote that he made peace the cornerstone of his policy. A major influential factor, by his own admission, was his experience as a corps commander during the war.

Circumstances triggering WWI were a sequence of the stupidities easily avoidable.


Nicky and the other two were in significantly different situations, implementing the same policies as Alex III wouldn't work in Nicky's case and I would note that the famine of 1891-2 was an essential element for the Russian revolutions in 1905 and 1917 so I would disagree that he had everything under control.
Very interesting theory, which is rather hard to believe because both revolutions happened during the disastrous wars. To back up this theory have start with proving that both these wars had been caused by this specific famine. Good luck.

BTW, I never said that ‘everything’ was under control: weather definitely was not, Wyshnegradsky overdid his grain export policy and reaction to the famine was not fast enough. But the effort was done and AIII even allowed to increase participation of the zemstvos, which he did not like.

The Russification policies or WW1?
WW1.

Russification, while being questionable act, made at least some seemingly valid logic behind it: the multi-national, multi-lingual RE needed some unifying factor, which could only be the language.

In the case of the first, Alex III started with Russification policies so him not continuing further is very unlikely.

You are smoothly trying to change the subject but how did it impact the industrial and agricultural development of the RE?

In the case of the latter no Russian Tsar would endlessly continue to appease Germany and Austria-Hungary, many factors are independent from the Russian Tsar and Russia cannot back down without looking like an idiot.
Please, explain me in a convincing way what exactly RE lost on the wrong side of the Balkans and how supporting the regicide, royalties in general and political terrorism was fitting its political framework.
Was AH planning to attack on Russia? Not at all. Willy was proposing a military alliance in 1905 but was rejected. And, speaking of looking like an idiot, Nicky was behaving like one even before WWI so the reputation was already there.

They wouldn't manage to solve Russia's problems much better than Nicky II did.
Which “problems” are you talking about? NII saw as the “problems” issues which were most probably quite different from your list. I’d recommend to read Kokovtsev’s memoirs: they are quite enlightening on this account.

Can any Russian government be considered successful if you look at it that way?
I can’t name one that produced “happiness for everybody! Free! And let’s nobody will walk away empty-handed!” So this question, as formulated, does not make sense. You have to produce a clear definition of the success.
The Constitution can effectively be avoided entirely by the Tsar if he wants to.

He could not. Read Kokovtsev. Actually, even NI could not “avoid” the laws. The ruling principle was that the Emperor is a source of the laws but after the law is confirmed by the Senate (which was not granted), he must obey that law.

The nobility definitely held much influence.
Meaningless statement because any high ranking person in the government or military was noble or ennobled by definition: see Table of the Ranks. However, this does not mean that all of them were landowners or had interests related to that group. Witte, for example, was much closer related to the banking/industrialist “class” and, as far as I can tell, so was Kokovtsev.
 
Last edited:
Top