But the odds are Henry Fitzroy won't be offered a Howard bride - Anne Boleyn won't be Queen. Fitzroy is still going to have his illness issues; he may not wed at all.
What Mistress Boleyn Wants (Mistress Boleyn Gets)
- Thread starter desmirelle
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- anne boleyn
So there might be a chance that the Percy's are promisied Fitzroys eastes and anyother former Neville eastes held by the crown if they play there cards right? And with the added bonus if Fitzroy is not married there won't be a 1/3 of the easte offered to his dowger letting all of the eastes go to the Percy's
See, this is why Anne is in charge and not you, you're going to get Percy executed instead of his brothers......if she's too ambitious, she'll make Henry VIII suspicious of her husband. There needs to be more than one family in the north to avoid this.
Your right I am being too ambitious. But if Fitzroy died heirless who can rivle the Percy's in the north? Every other family is too weak. So I'm guessing Anne's going to search for southern eastes for the family to draw off her suspicion?
Eh not really. The talbots patrimony was mostly in the midlands with Sheffield being the most north of there estates. The gross income of the Percy's when the 5th earl of Northumberland died was 5000 pounds. Ten years laters when the 4th earl of shrewsbury died the talbot income (I'm not sure if it's gross or net) was 1735 pounds. And that's after increasing the estates thourgh buying monastic land. The talbot Yorkshire estates were worth 200 pound per annum and that's after being consolidated with monastic land. Sheffield wasn't a big money maker until the 1570s. The Percy Yorkshire eastes were worth over 1200 pounds per annum gross. Of course I feel like I'm missing something with the talbots but thats what my sources say about there income in the early Tudor period. So no even in Yorkshire there were tiny compared to the Percy's.
Edit: okay I misread my source. The talbot Yorkshire estates were worth 700 pounds a year. Significant but not up to the level of the Percy's even in Yorkshire
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Of course you've got to remember that even I find these sources on the talbots income to be a bit off. I've been trying to find better sources but so far this is what we're stuck with.
March 1526
It had been as so unexpected as to almost be unbelievable. The Earl was on his way home from court and caught a cold. He and Catherine had hurried home, but the cold developed into something worse and Henry Algernon Percy, 5th Earl of Northumberland died on 16 March. Henry and Anne were now the Earl and Countess of Northumberland. The Dowager Countess was in shock and seemed unable to do anything; Anne took charge of the house and began issuing orders as the older woman remained abed in her rooms. Anne made sure that a maid stayed with her; it was frightening to see Catherine this way.
The 5th earl was buried two days before his grandson’s first birthday. Catherine had insisted on taking the child with them for the service.
“His grandsire would want it,” the woman said and Anne allowed it over the child’s nurse’s objections (it’s too cold and damp by half). The child seemed to understand the occasion and made not a sound until his grandam began sobbing, then he patted her cheek, but didn’t cry himself.
“Thomas should have been here,” Henry said as they returned home. Thomas was with the King, taking Henry’s place as a gentleman of honor.
“Your father should be here,” Anne told him, shaking her head and watching Catherine – still carrying Algernon – head up the stairs. “Sometimes I wonder what God is thinking.” Henry looked surprised at her statement; she did, too: after she said it, she looked shocked. “I’m sorry, I’m not myself. I truly loved your father.” They embraced, both tearing up.
“I know, and he loved you, too.”
“I’m so glad he did.”
The letter from Wolsey that arrived on Algernon’s birthday was just as shocking as the death of his grandfather. A man called Fredericke-Jehan Strausse had attempted to kill Henry VIII while the king was hunting in Savernake Forest. Thomas Percy had seen the danger and alarmed everyone else when he drew his bow and shot beyond the startled King, killing the man with a shot through his left eye. Strausse’s shot had not been loosed due to the swiftness of Thomas’ actions. Strausse, a printer by trade, had been revealed to be a man of individual beliefs derived from many places. He believed that no religion was right (and had written his brother in Paris that he did not believe there was a God), that all people had a right to say in government regardless of their place in society, and that kings and queens and popes and caliphs and other rulers were all oppressors of people who should be freed from them by any means necessary. The king had knighted Thomas on the spot and was deciding what else to do for him and instructed the cardinal to thank them for sending Thomas in Henry’s stead and to thank Henry Algernon Percy for ensuring his son’s arm was true.
“They hadn’t gotten our letter to Thomas,” Anne murmured as she re-read the missive.
“Thank God he was there,” Henry said.
“I pray the King doesn’t make him a Duke for this,” Anne said, folding the letter. “It would be just like him to be so impulsive.”
It had been as so unexpected as to almost be unbelievable. The Earl was on his way home from court and caught a cold. He and Catherine had hurried home, but the cold developed into something worse and Henry Algernon Percy, 5th Earl of Northumberland died on 16 March. Henry and Anne were now the Earl and Countess of Northumberland. The Dowager Countess was in shock and seemed unable to do anything; Anne took charge of the house and began issuing orders as the older woman remained abed in her rooms. Anne made sure that a maid stayed with her; it was frightening to see Catherine this way.
The 5th earl was buried two days before his grandson’s first birthday. Catherine had insisted on taking the child with them for the service.
“His grandsire would want it,” the woman said and Anne allowed it over the child’s nurse’s objections (it’s too cold and damp by half). The child seemed to understand the occasion and made not a sound until his grandam began sobbing, then he patted her cheek, but didn’t cry himself.
“Thomas should have been here,” Henry said as they returned home. Thomas was with the King, taking Henry’s place as a gentleman of honor.
“Your father should be here,” Anne told him, shaking her head and watching Catherine – still carrying Algernon – head up the stairs. “Sometimes I wonder what God is thinking.” Henry looked surprised at her statement; she did, too: after she said it, she looked shocked. “I’m sorry, I’m not myself. I truly loved your father.” They embraced, both tearing up.
“I know, and he loved you, too.”
“I’m so glad he did.”
The letter from Wolsey that arrived on Algernon’s birthday was just as shocking as the death of his grandfather. A man called Fredericke-Jehan Strausse had attempted to kill Henry VIII while the king was hunting in Savernake Forest. Thomas Percy had seen the danger and alarmed everyone else when he drew his bow and shot beyond the startled King, killing the man with a shot through his left eye. Strausse’s shot had not been loosed due to the swiftness of Thomas’ actions. Strausse, a printer by trade, had been revealed to be a man of individual beliefs derived from many places. He believed that no religion was right (and had written his brother in Paris that he did not believe there was a God), that all people had a right to say in government regardless of their place in society, and that kings and queens and popes and caliphs and other rulers were all oppressors of people who should be freed from them by any means necessary. The king had knighted Thomas on the spot and was deciding what else to do for him and instructed the cardinal to thank them for sending Thomas in Henry’s stead and to thank Henry Algernon Percy for ensuring his son’s arm was true.
“They hadn’t gotten our letter to Thomas,” Anne murmured as she re-read the missive.
“Thank God he was there,” Henry said.
“I pray the King doesn’t make him a Duke for this,” Anne said, folding the letter. “It would be just like him to be so impulsive.”
June 1526
She hated the nausea; even though both Catherine and her mother told her it meant the child was healthy and growing. Anne got up, had Nell help her dress and went to the throne room, where Thomas Percy became the Earl of Carlisle. The income wasn’t much, but it had made Mary Talbot interested in a second son. With her dowry, they’d be all right – if they didn’t waste the money. Anne didn’t have confidence in Mary Talbot’s ability to run a household; when she’d mentioned it to Catherine, the older woman’s response had been to volunteer to move in with them until Mary got the hang of things. That would make Anne’s life easier. Without Catherine underfoot, Anne could get the house into the shape it should be.
What Anne hadn’t counted on was Queen Katherine’s insistence that Anne spend a lot of time with her and her ladies. Anne’s miscarriage was reason she’d missed Christmas at court, but this pregnancy wasn’t like the first one, she was close to three months along and sick all day long. She hoped this meant a daughter, she wanted one to raise as a strong Christian woman. Anne took a clove and chewed on it, it helped the nausea and her breath. Then she headed for the queen’s chamber.
And was surprised to find the queen alone but for Maria Willoughby. As soon as Anne entered, Maria curtseyed to the queen and withdrew.
“Is there a problem, your majesty?” Anne asked while still in her own deep curtsey. She risked looking up.
“Yes, but it is not you, your ladyship,” Katherine motioned for Anne to take the chair Maria had just vacated. “I have need of a shrewd judge and wise woman; and I have come to believe you are both.” Anne got up and slowly made her way to the chair, unsure of what the queen meant. Katherine motioned for her to hurry. “Come, come, we should be honest with one another, two women with strong minds. We have to think faster and harder than our men, do we not?”
Anne smiled as she sat. “Yes, your grace, we do.”
“And you knew you were not pregnant when you came to me?”
Anne kept smiling, but looked at the floor. “But we had pledged ourselves and the cardinal was, well, the cardinal and –“ She looked up at the still-smiling Katherine and shrugged. “I did what I had to do to marry the man I love.”
“Are you happy?”
Anne nodded. “Yes, I am, your grace.” She patted her stomach. “And hopefully I will deliver our second child come the New Year.”
Katherine nodded thoughtfully. “Yes, you lost one at Christmas, did you not?”
“A daughter.” Anne was surprised that the sharp pain of memory still hurts so much. She shook her head. “Why did your majesty wish to see me?” she asked, to get off the subject.
“I need your sharp mind. My husband is wondering if he was wrong to marry me all those years ago, even though I was a virgin and he loved me.” Katherine’s face was sad. “He is writing letters asking if the dispensation was in error.”
Anne thought quickly. “To whom is he writing?”
“Universities, to theologians, he does not tell me; but I have sources. He has not written the Pope, but he is working up to it.” Katherine looked at her expectantly.
“Have you seen the letters?” Anne asked. hun
Katherine nodded, “I have the copies.”
Anne smiled. “May I have copies of the letters?” she asked.
“Of course, what will you do?”
Anne thought for a moment. “Perhaps it would be better if you didn’t know what I am thinking of, that way you can honestly be surprised and tell his majesty you did not do it.” She didn’t actually know what she was going to do, but she knew she would think of something – her inner voice (which had never failed her yet) told her she would.
August 1526
Henry VIII was staring at the pamphlet. One of his letters to the University of Paris had gone astray and here was a pamphlet with the letter printed upon it and more. Somehow, the heretic John Calvin had gotten a copy of the letter and was using him, Henry VIII – the Defender of the Faith – to mock the Church! It mocked that he had used Leviticus – claiming that it was for the Christ-killer Jews, not Christians. He wadded up the pamphlet and threw it across the room. He would have to answer this and there was only one man for that job – Thomas More.
To his surprise, More was reluctant. He told his monarch that he could only undertake the rebuttal of the pamphlet if it were not true: if, as Calvin claimed, Henry was trying to rid himself of his wife, then the pamphlet’s insults were true and not worthy of response. If Henry were asking about Leviticus in all honesty and wanted a true reply, More could offer a reply to Henry personally and a response to Calvin publicly. He did not want an answer right away; and asked that Henry think on his answer to More’s questions and give a reply after the Mass and Sermon on Sunday. Henry invited More to join him for a personal luncheon afterward both on Sunday, to give the answer and discuss it privately.
Anne was miserable. This baby was so active she was beginning to wonder if it were just one, she was so huge! Her feet were swollen and it hurt to walk. Catherine had returned, but wanted to go back to Thomas and Mary – Anne had been right about Mary needing help running a household. (“Her mother has taught her nothing and she’s paid no attention to what went on in her home!” was Catherine’s horrified admission.) She and Catherine had already decided mid-December was a more accurate date to expect the child, and were now discussing whether or not Nell was right; that there were two infants within. She was glad Katherine had let her go home instead of asking her to stay (and was sure that her ‘secret’ mission for the queen was the real reason she was released.)
She hated the nausea; even though both Catherine and her mother told her it meant the child was healthy and growing. Anne got up, had Nell help her dress and went to the throne room, where Thomas Percy became the Earl of Carlisle. The income wasn’t much, but it had made Mary Talbot interested in a second son. With her dowry, they’d be all right – if they didn’t waste the money. Anne didn’t have confidence in Mary Talbot’s ability to run a household; when she’d mentioned it to Catherine, the older woman’s response had been to volunteer to move in with them until Mary got the hang of things. That would make Anne’s life easier. Without Catherine underfoot, Anne could get the house into the shape it should be.
What Anne hadn’t counted on was Queen Katherine’s insistence that Anne spend a lot of time with her and her ladies. Anne’s miscarriage was reason she’d missed Christmas at court, but this pregnancy wasn’t like the first one, she was close to three months along and sick all day long. She hoped this meant a daughter, she wanted one to raise as a strong Christian woman. Anne took a clove and chewed on it, it helped the nausea and her breath. Then she headed for the queen’s chamber.
And was surprised to find the queen alone but for Maria Willoughby. As soon as Anne entered, Maria curtseyed to the queen and withdrew.
“Is there a problem, your majesty?” Anne asked while still in her own deep curtsey. She risked looking up.
“Yes, but it is not you, your ladyship,” Katherine motioned for Anne to take the chair Maria had just vacated. “I have need of a shrewd judge and wise woman; and I have come to believe you are both.” Anne got up and slowly made her way to the chair, unsure of what the queen meant. Katherine motioned for her to hurry. “Come, come, we should be honest with one another, two women with strong minds. We have to think faster and harder than our men, do we not?”
Anne smiled as she sat. “Yes, your grace, we do.”
“And you knew you were not pregnant when you came to me?”
Anne kept smiling, but looked at the floor. “But we had pledged ourselves and the cardinal was, well, the cardinal and –“ She looked up at the still-smiling Katherine and shrugged. “I did what I had to do to marry the man I love.”
“Are you happy?”
Anne nodded. “Yes, I am, your grace.” She patted her stomach. “And hopefully I will deliver our second child come the New Year.”
Katherine nodded thoughtfully. “Yes, you lost one at Christmas, did you not?”
“A daughter.” Anne was surprised that the sharp pain of memory still hurts so much. She shook her head. “Why did your majesty wish to see me?” she asked, to get off the subject.
“I need your sharp mind. My husband is wondering if he was wrong to marry me all those years ago, even though I was a virgin and he loved me.” Katherine’s face was sad. “He is writing letters asking if the dispensation was in error.”
Anne thought quickly. “To whom is he writing?”
“Universities, to theologians, he does not tell me; but I have sources. He has not written the Pope, but he is working up to it.” Katherine looked at her expectantly.
“Have you seen the letters?” Anne asked. hun
Katherine nodded, “I have the copies.”
Anne smiled. “May I have copies of the letters?” she asked.
“Of course, what will you do?”
Anne thought for a moment. “Perhaps it would be better if you didn’t know what I am thinking of, that way you can honestly be surprised and tell his majesty you did not do it.” She didn’t actually know what she was going to do, but she knew she would think of something – her inner voice (which had never failed her yet) told her she would.
August 1526
Henry VIII was staring at the pamphlet. One of his letters to the University of Paris had gone astray and here was a pamphlet with the letter printed upon it and more. Somehow, the heretic John Calvin had gotten a copy of the letter and was using him, Henry VIII – the Defender of the Faith – to mock the Church! It mocked that he had used Leviticus – claiming that it was for the Christ-killer Jews, not Christians. He wadded up the pamphlet and threw it across the room. He would have to answer this and there was only one man for that job – Thomas More.
To his surprise, More was reluctant. He told his monarch that he could only undertake the rebuttal of the pamphlet if it were not true: if, as Calvin claimed, Henry was trying to rid himself of his wife, then the pamphlet’s insults were true and not worthy of response. If Henry were asking about Leviticus in all honesty and wanted a true reply, More could offer a reply to Henry personally and a response to Calvin publicly. He did not want an answer right away; and asked that Henry think on his answer to More’s questions and give a reply after the Mass and Sermon on Sunday. Henry invited More to join him for a personal luncheon afterward both on Sunday, to give the answer and discuss it privately.
Anne was miserable. This baby was so active she was beginning to wonder if it were just one, she was so huge! Her feet were swollen and it hurt to walk. Catherine had returned, but wanted to go back to Thomas and Mary – Anne had been right about Mary needing help running a household. (“Her mother has taught her nothing and she’s paid no attention to what went on in her home!” was Catherine’s horrified admission.) She and Catherine had already decided mid-December was a more accurate date to expect the child, and were now discussing whether or not Nell was right; that there were two infants within. She was glad Katherine had let her go home instead of asking her to stay (and was sure that her ‘secret’ mission for the queen was the real reason she was released.)
Earl of carslie? Hm intresting. How much are Thomas Percy's estates worth and where are they?
Also about the talbot Percy dynamic. The talbots could only challenge the Percy's in Yorkshire in the west riding. That's because the Percy estates were scattered all thourgh out Yorkshire while the talbot Yorkshire estates were centered on the west riding. So while the talbots may have an advantage in the west riding there still way behind the Percy's in Yorkshire and the north in general.
Also about the talbot Percy dynamic. The talbots could only challenge the Percy's in Yorkshire in the west riding. That's because the Percy estates were scattered all thourgh out Yorkshire while the talbot Yorkshire estates were centered on the west riding. So while the talbots may have an advantage in the west riding there still way behind the Percy's in Yorkshire and the north in general.
So now that dad is dead does the new earl of Northumberland get the wardenship of the east March against Scotland that was denied to his father because he was incompetent. Because remember right after Henry Percy succeeded he was given the the east March and the lord wardenship of the whole March. And will he be given a war of the rose size salary for it? Also I'm curious was there a noble family richer then the Percy's after the duke of buckingham execution?
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December 1526
Anne had planned on taking to her chamber on the fifth. She couldn’t afford to do the whole month of chamber; there was too much to do, they’d purchased some property and the books were in horrible order, she was taking them with her. But the twins forestalled all that: she had them in seven hours on the third, at least three weeks before their expected date. As she held her son, she looked across the room at Henry, holding their daughter.
“Claudia?” Henry said to her. “Claudia?”
“Queen Claude was a wonderful example of how a woman should live,” Anne reminded him. “And George for my favorite brother.”
“Your only brother,” added her husband.
“So it’s good he’s my favorite, it would be horrible if I hated him.”
Henry grinned. “We’d have to name him Ingelram.” Anne stuck out her tongue. Catherine entered and caught the exchange.
“What’s wrong with Ingelram?” she asked with mock seriousness.
“He’s got terrible breath,” Anne said at once.
Catheine laughed and nodded. “You’re right there, he reeks. It’s all that garlic. He loves it. So, how are my grandbabes?”
“Quiet as churchmice. None of the hollering Al gave us.” Henry reported. “And how are Tom and Mary doing with theirs?”
“Tommy is as loud as Al was. And he’s not nearly as pretty. I’m afraid he takes after the Talbots in looks.” Catherine admitted.
“Does Mary like Carlisle?” Anne asked. She knew the answer, but wanted to hear the reply.
Catherine stopped in the middle of the room, shook her head and rolled her eyes. “It’s not nearly as good as home, she says, like Carlisle’s not her home! Poor Tom can do nothing right, and she thinks she can do nothing wrong. She’s complaining all the time; and I hate to think what’s going on with me here. Luckily, we’ve hired good people so it won’t go too wrong with her in charge.” Catherine went over and took her granddaughter from Henry. “She’s going to be pretty, like your sister, I do believe.”
“I should hope so, I wouldn’t wish my looks on any girl I have.” Anne said.
“I like your looks; I’d love a daughter with them,” protested Henry. The two women exchanged glances. “What?”
Catherine answered, “You don’t understand what a challenge not fitting in can be. When you’re smart and strong like Anne, you can make it work, but most of us would be wallflowers.”
“Thank you, madam,” Anne told her.
“You’re welcome, daughter,” Catherine replied. Henry realized anew he did not understand women.
March 1527
Anne was staring at the ground like she could make it give him back.
Anne had planned on taking to her chamber on the fifth. She couldn’t afford to do the whole month of chamber; there was too much to do, they’d purchased some property and the books were in horrible order, she was taking them with her. But the twins forestalled all that: she had them in seven hours on the third, at least three weeks before their expected date. As she held her son, she looked across the room at Henry, holding their daughter.
“Claudia?” Henry said to her. “Claudia?”
“Queen Claude was a wonderful example of how a woman should live,” Anne reminded him. “And George for my favorite brother.”
“Your only brother,” added her husband.
“So it’s good he’s my favorite, it would be horrible if I hated him.”
Henry grinned. “We’d have to name him Ingelram.” Anne stuck out her tongue. Catherine entered and caught the exchange.
“What’s wrong with Ingelram?” she asked with mock seriousness.
“He’s got terrible breath,” Anne said at once.
Catheine laughed and nodded. “You’re right there, he reeks. It’s all that garlic. He loves it. So, how are my grandbabes?”
“Quiet as churchmice. None of the hollering Al gave us.” Henry reported. “And how are Tom and Mary doing with theirs?”
“Tommy is as loud as Al was. And he’s not nearly as pretty. I’m afraid he takes after the Talbots in looks.” Catherine admitted.
“Does Mary like Carlisle?” Anne asked. She knew the answer, but wanted to hear the reply.
Catherine stopped in the middle of the room, shook her head and rolled her eyes. “It’s not nearly as good as home, she says, like Carlisle’s not her home! Poor Tom can do nothing right, and she thinks she can do nothing wrong. She’s complaining all the time; and I hate to think what’s going on with me here. Luckily, we’ve hired good people so it won’t go too wrong with her in charge.” Catherine went over and took her granddaughter from Henry. “She’s going to be pretty, like your sister, I do believe.”
“I should hope so, I wouldn’t wish my looks on any girl I have.” Anne said.
“I like your looks; I’d love a daughter with them,” protested Henry. The two women exchanged glances. “What?”
Catherine answered, “You don’t understand what a challenge not fitting in can be. When you’re smart and strong like Anne, you can make it work, but most of us would be wallflowers.”
“Thank you, madam,” Anne told her.
“You’re welcome, daughter,” Catherine replied. Henry realized anew he did not understand women.
March 1527
Anne was staring at the ground like she could make it give him back.
Oh my god is Henry, Al or little George dead? Also Thomas was given Carlisle? Thats the center of the west march against Scotland. Wouldn't the darces the wardens of the west March at the time complain about having there headquarters taken? Also how much is the Thomas eastes worth? Because I don't think there was much royal land in Cumberland for Henry viii to give.
Thomas wasn't 'given' Carlisle. He killed a man who was trying to kill the king. He earned it the old-fashioned way: doing a great service to the king. And the Dacres are smart enough to go "oh, goody-goody, there's someone in that stupid castle, we've got new friends!" Carlisle at the time was in-between 'creations' after being forfeit to the crown for treason.
And for your first question: you'll have to wait until I post it to find out who died......
And for your first question: you'll have to wait until I post it to find out who died......
why are the dacres okay with this? The head quarters of there command just been usurped. The govership of Carlisle was a royal appointment. Also the last earl of Carlisle was killed 200 years ago in this timeline. Carlisle has been a royal castle for 200 years. Nobody used to some bloke just owning it as a private castle. Also I don't think the Royal estates in Cumberland were big enough to support an earldom i.e. 1000 pounds a year minimum. So does Thomas own other estates outside of Cumberland to support himself?Thomas wasn't 'given' Carlisle. He killed a man who was trying to kill the king. He earned it the old-fashioned way: doing a great service to the king. And the Dacres are smart enough to go "oh, goody-goody, there's someone in that stupid castle, we've got new friends!" Carlisle at the time was in-between 'creations' after being forfeit to the crown for treason.
And for your first question: you'll have to wait until I post it to find out who died......
The Dacres are okay with it because the King says Thomas is Earl of Carlisle. They'd like to hold on to their property and a fast track to losing it is to bicker with the king about the rewards he gives the guy who saved his freakin' life.
That seems unrealistic. I'm pretty sure the nobility of Tudor England bickered amongst them selves and even with the king about stuff like this. It was the inkling of treason that caused Henry to cut off your head not bickering. I'm pretty sure the king was even sued a couple of times in this period about property. Also Carlisle seems like a kind of dumb prize to give. It was a castles with a permanent profesnial garrison. Its important for border defence. It's not the type of castle to give on a whim. And besides the estates for it are small. So it doesn't make sense as a prize.