What if Japan and Italy fought in World War I on the side of the Central Powers?

To reframe your question: WI Japan attacks its closest ally and major financial backer, entering a war with three Great Powers whose combined strength in the Pacific can overwhelm Tokyo. This entirely voluntary war of choice will force them to commit vast numbers of troops to the continent, especially given that this choice will absolutely bring the Beiyang government into the Entente since it's the easiest possible win for Chinese prestige. This war also gambles that Japan will not only achieve a total victory across the whole of East Asia- at a minimum seizing Outer Manchuria, Northern China, Indochina and large areas of Southern China and the Yantgze Basin - but also that Japan's allies in Europe also achieve so total a victory that Britain and France don't respond to a loss to the Central Powers by sending their European navies to Asia to crush Japan.

We're not even talking about the fact that by launching a surprise attack on Japan's ally, the Japanese have given substance to every deranged white supremacist fantasy of the naturally treacherous Asian, likely increasing American support for the Entente and definitely increasing Canadian and Australian commitment to the war, while also making it hard to achieve any negotiated peace.

Who on earth in the Japanese government is stupid enough to take that risk?
Considering how close Japan was to Britain since the Boshin war it’s a bit awkward how hostile they would be starting the 20s before ending up at war with each other 24 years after the end of World War 1.
Interesting how 'gilded by retrospective' some things can get :winkytongue:. In this case the 'closest alliance' rhymed into the the anglo-japanese alliance.
British politics were from the beginning (of this alliance) eager to be not drawn too deep into and their reactions were (i.e. the 'renewals' 1905 and 1911) more dictated by the very own interests of Britain to be preserved also before Japans. The british politics had secured loopholes to NOT directly support/join Japan in 1904 in the russo-japanes war and support it rather indirectly by clandestine intelligence and behind the curtains diplomacy (i.e. pressure on France NOT to support Russia).
In 1914 Grey was at first rather 'reserved' and denied any need of japanese support but was eventually (ab)used and kinda taken by surprise by Kato Takaaki with the japanese entry into WW1 with their attempt - and finally successfull - seizure of Tsingtao.


However ... the german possibilities regarding Japan ...
From the beginning they were curtailed by the blue-eyed german minister to Tokio von Rex who at that time 'spoke' also for China as there was only a placeholder installed until the arrival of Paul von Hintze (much delayed IOTL by war-related 'technical' reasons). This man believed in somehow reaching kinda 'non-belligerency' in south and east asia to be reached by mutual understanding between the great powers esp. including the US of A. Not the least reason for him was 'not to show the asiatics the superior white man fighting each other'.
What completly misjudged - and he misjudged a lot in general reagrding Japan - japanese political and its politicians ambitions.
Later, under the 'guidance' of Paul v. Hintze there was a somewhat more realistic approach which includes - aside offering Tsingtao 'officialy' - loans in gold (during the war the german gold reserves were rather stable and a 'save' investment) and 'free hand' againmst russia ofc.

... Nobody from the german side then took japanese indiscretion or outright fraud into the diplomatic accounting.
 
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The difficulty I see here is that Japan doesn't have much impetus to turn on Britain. What do they stand to gain? The Dutch East Indies aren't anywhere near as attractive as they would be in 25 years.

They can probably scoop up quite a few territories, and the RN is going to be fairly distracted, but the IJN is going to struggle even against the small portions of the RN that get committed. The Americans aren't going to like a rampaging Japan either. Are Fiji and Singapore worth it?

If there were near conflict between Japan and Britain before the war it might do it. Even then, it took 25 years of insane government to see the objectively poor reasoning of the WW2 era Japanese empire.

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Regardless, if Japan were to go against Britain it'd be a gigantic headache for the Allies. How are you supposed to curtail their raiding and the like? Von Spee's squadron now has a base of operation.

Of course, if Germany still loses, then post war will see the RN come down on Japan like a sledgehammer on a chicken.
Who says Japan has to go activly against Britain and its installations and assets?
Against Russia in pursuing its gains from the last war with even further would already be enough for the german militaries with the dustraction of russian forces and I would/could think the Admirailty also would think twice about declaring war against Japan only for their russian ally.
I could well imagine kinda 'extra-war' between Japan and Russia but no official war between Japan and the western entente partners (... depending on how 'greedy' the japanese military might become).

... Italy is in a terrible place food and coal wise, though. ...
... if I remember Italy was - at least in the early years - a net food exporter ... but I'm prepared to be teached (by source) different.

Regarding coal ... not for the first time (and probably not the last, myths never die ... ) I would like you to have a look here for the amount of coal eventually available and here for its transportation possibilities to Italy (the other often tried counterargument against german coal-support to Italy).
 
Interesting how 'gilded by retrospective' some things can get :winkytongue:. In this case the 'closest allaince' rhymed into the the anglo-japanese alliance.

I can’t see your point behind the sneering.

Yes, the Anglo-Japanese Alliance in practice, was beset by reservations and doubts.

In 1914, Britain was Japan’s closest ally.

There is no contradiction between these points.
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
Who says Japan has to go activly against Britain and its installations and assets?
Against Russia in pursuing its gains from the last war with even further would already be enough for the german militaries with the dustraction of russian forces and I would/could think the Admirailty also would think twice about declaring war against Japan only for their russian ally.
I could well imagine kinda 'extra-war' between Japan and Russia but no official war between Japan and the western entente partners (... depending on how 'greedy' the japanese military might become).


... if I remember Italy was - at least in the early years - a net food exporter ... but I'm prepared to be teached (by source) different.

Regarding coal ... not for the first time (and probably not the last, myths never die ... ) I would like you to have a look here for the amount of coal eventually available and here for its transportation possibilities to Italy (the other often tried counterargument against german coal-support to Italy).
In 1914, Japan really didn’t *want* anything else from Russia. It had moved pretty easily, post R-J war, to a mutually agreeable division of spheres of influence in northeast Asia and was happy to work together to keep out Anglo-American and German meddling. Of course when Russia collapsed into revolution and civil war, it expanded its zone of influence and control, but it hadn’t been an imperative to push for. The entente mostly worked for Russia too. But if any side was of two minds and thought of a rematch, it was the Russians thinking of the rasplata, the “payback” for 1905, not the Japanese.
 
@raharris1973 ... well
... what did they want this mandschurian influence zone in the first place?
AIUI to 'secure' their holdings in and of Korea.​
Now they possibly would like to 'secure' their holdings in and of Mandschuria ?

... and isn't Wladiwostok as the military base it is still MUACH to near to Korea? ... not to speak of homeland Honshu as well ?

... and isn't Hokkaido better 'secured' if Sachalin and the lands east of the Amur (regions of Primorja and Chabarowsk) are also controled by Tokio (not to speak of of possible/tell-taled-of resource treasures ;-))

... and haven't they 'just' made the experience how - relativly esp. for in Tokio warm sitting generals and politicians - easy it had been to defeat the russians?


Also - as IIRC it has already been hinted at - as the RN would just have its hands full half a globe away against the german navy (?).
What else of power projection from the Entente powers to speak of actually was there? ... that wouldn't compromise their efforts in the european/middle-east/african theaters?
 
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I like your response in that you at least try to build up a little of a pathway for getting Japan to do this, instead of simply handwaving it without explanation, or just dumping on it with OTL reasons why, "nah, never" like most responders.
I'm guilty.

I suppose that Japan's 1941 decision making should convince us of the possibility of Japan making objectively bad decisions, and this can be made to happen earlier. In trying to change as little as possible (I mean, if we can make anything happen with an early enough and wild enough deviation, but that can start to get less and less rational) I quite like the idea below-
Who says Japan has to go activly against Britain and its installations and assets?
Against Russia in pursuing its gains from the last war with even further would already be enough for the german militaries with the dustraction of russian forces and I would/could think the Admirailty also would think twice about declaring war against Japan only for their russian ally.
I could well imagine kinda 'extra-war' between Japan and Russia but no official war between Japan and the western entente partners (... depending on how 'greedy' the japanese military might become).
This could also lead to an unintended war with the others. Keeping the Russians in the war and sorta happy/not distracted might be worth the Western powers issuing some ultimatum to Japan.

I keep going back and forth on the naval implications. Some part of me excepts the RN to smash them with their second hand fleets, but then I get wondering if they'd be unable to really come to grips with Japan. Russian attrition is a big deal on its own.
... if I remember Italy was - at least in the early years - a net food exporter ... but I'm prepared to be teached (by source) different.

Regarding coal ... not for the first time (and probably not the last, myths never die ... ) I would like you to have a look here for the amount of coal eventually available and here for its transportation possibilities to Italy (the other often tried counterargument against german coal-support to Italy).
Thank you! That was interesting regarding the coal.

TBF, I'm not really confident in any WW1 country staying economically viable during a total war, and trade/naval disruptions are a major issue for Italy relative to the others. Food or a lack there of, I'm betting on a mirror of the Italian/AH border bloodletting that doesn't really decisively end the war but does sap everyone.

Also, we might see some fantastic early dreadnought/predreadnought actions in the Mediterranean.
 
Honestly I could see that Germany decides it's Pacific possessions aren't worth fighting over and indicates a willingness to sell/exchange them to Japan in return for something.
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
To reframe your question: WI Japan attacks its closest ally and major financial backer, entering a war with three Great Powers whose combined strength in the Pacific can overwhelm Tokyo. This entirely voluntary war of choice will force them to commit vast numbers of troops to the continent, especially given that this choice will absolutely bring the Beiyang government into the Entente since it's the easiest possible win for Chinese prestige. This war also gambles that Japan will not only achieve a total victory across the whole of East Asia- at a minimum seizing Outer Manchuria, Northern China, Indochina and large areas of Southern China and the Yantgze Basin - but also that Japan's allies in Europe also achieve so total a victory that Britain and France don't respond to a loss to the Central Powers by sending their European navies to Asia to crush Japan.

We're not even talking about the fact that by launching a surprise attack on Japan's ally, the Japanese have given substance to every deranged white supremacist fantasy of the naturally treacherous Asian, likely increasing American support for the Entente and definitely increasing Canadian and Australian commitment to the war, while also making it hard to achieve any negotiated peace.

Who on earth in the Japanese government is stupid enough to take that risk?
The best part of this is that it asks why the heck would Japan do this, because of the bad correlation of strategic forces and the isolated position Japan would be in, considering the good alliance they had, and the nontrivial, though modest, gains, they could make from their OTL course.

The flaw in the paragraph heaping all the disasters upon Japan that will ensure if they side with the CP is that it assumes that greatly superior Entente strategic capacity, even greatly superior, globally distributed forces, automatically and promptly translates into superior or adequately superior tactical or operational capability *where the Japanese would be operating in the near term*.

Going through some specific points:
This entirely voluntary war of choice will force them to commit vast numbers of troops to the continent, especially given that this choice will absolutely bring the Beiyang government into the Entente since it's the easiest possible win for Chinese prestige.
There is no absoluteness to this prediction at all, even if it seems self-evidently strategically brilliant and obvious to you. Sure, China's Beijing government *could* declare war on Japan, to win the favor of a global alliance that has a larger population, more territory and looks stronger on paper, and could help it get revenge on Japan.

But was China in 1914 and 1915 up for the rigors of war with Japan and ready to be the primary recipient of Japan's military attention, just to boost its "prestige"? I don't think it had the illusion it was, or that it would be the "easiest possible win". If China was in shape to go to war with anyone, and looking for the "easiest possible win", Yuan Shikai's Beijing government would have certainly declared war on Germany after Britain did so and began its blockade, and started assaulting or besieging the German enclave at Qingdao. Instead, what China did was dilly-dally and wait, and let Japan declare war on Germany in September first, and start its siege, making it too late to act on its own. Then it later resorted to whining to try to get the concession land back.

Prediction: China's Beiyang government will stand aloof from this Japan and Germany versus Entente fight, and certainly at least wait to see which way the wind is blowing, before committing, and may never commit before matters are decided without China's input. Beiyang forces indeed may stand aside as pathetic witnesses to combat between Japanese and German (and tiny Austro-Hungarian) forces in Chinese ports and cities, fighting against British and French and Russians forces and legations in Chinese ports and cities.

While the British fleet supported by the Dominions is a superior force, and more so when augmented by the French, only so much of it is around Japan and in the China Seas, and the Entente fleets have multiple things to do in European waters, the Mediterranean, the Indian Ocean, and the world's other oceans. Additionally, there would be a certain augmentation and synergy of the German Far Eastern squadron and IJN being able to cooperate and use each other's facilities, especially against Russia's Pacific coast and in the China seas against French Indochina.

The Japanese betrayal will activate racial and racist fears certainly, but that by itself won't magically speed up America's effective war readiness or politically bring America into the war. I could imagine it harming US-Japanese trade. It would confront the US with a novel position it did no grapple with in OTL WWI, a belligerent state it disliked and heavily distrusted (more than the Irish-American community made it the case with Britain), that is physically capable of trading with the USA, and eager to buy US goods.

It is correct Canada and Australia would be alarmed. Probably to the detriment of both countries' contribution to the war effort against Germany. The Canadians will probably insist on an excessive number of ships on their west coast and an excessive garrison in British Columbia. The Australians and New Zealanders will be reluctant to deploy outside of the Pacific approaches to their homelands, which is bad for Britain's Middle East campaigns.
 

You're suggesting that a Japan that is irrational enough to spontaneously attack its allies is also not irrational enough to issue the Twenty One Demands? Because if it does, in this scenario I don't see how that possibly doesn't see a nominal declaration of war from Beijing.

I'd look at Japan and the Great War (ed. Olivero Frattolillo and Antony Best), particularly Xu Guoqi's The Great War in China and Japan which suggests that the Beiyang government's concern about Japan was the driving force behind its alignment with the Entente. In this scenario, that concern will be much greater - and the Entente remains the only possible patron. Also Best's Britain, Japan and the Crisis over China, 1915-1916, which deals directly with tensions within the alliance previous to the Twenty One Demands - largely over China.
 
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raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
You're suggesting that a Japan that is irrational enough to spontaneously attack its allies is also not irrational enough to issue the Twenty One Demands? Because if it does, in this scenario I don't see how that possibly doesn't see a nominal declaration of war from Beijing.

I'd look at Japan and the Great War (ed. Olivero Frattolillo and Antony Best), particularly Xu Guoqi's The Great War in China and Japan which suggests that the Beiyang government's concern about Japan was the driving force behind its alignment with the Entente. In this scenario, that concern will be much greater - and the Entente remains the only possible patron. Also Best's Britain, Japan and the Crisis over China, 1915-1916, which deals directly with tensions within the alliance previous to the Twenty One Demands - largely over China.
On this era, I would also recommend Dickson, War and National Reinvention about Japan and the Great War.

Because if it does, in this scenario I don't see how that possibly doesn't see a nominal declaration of war from Beijing.
They may not go to war with the Entente and do 21 Demands at the same time. Or, the pursuit of victory over Entente in the regions may, in Tokyo's mind, may render the "work only with Japanese advisors" aspects of the 21 Demands seem superfluous and unnecessary.

Additionally, a nominal declaration, not followed up by effective or notable military action, does not need to be are treated as top military or naval priority, certainly not a priority over dealing with Entente forces and targets in the region.

There would be a chance the Beijing Beiyang government would find a broad following for a DoW, motivated by 21 Demands. There's also a chance that the war could split the dueling extant Chinese regimes at the time, the southern Guangzhou regime of Sun Yat-sen, most recently of exile in Japan, might declare war on the Entente, and side against Yuan Shikai and with Japan and Germany.
 
On this era, I would also recommend Dickson, War and National Reinvention about Japan and the Great War.


They may not go to war with the Entente and do 21 Demands at the same time. Or, the pursuit of victory over Entente in the regions may, in Tokyo's mind, may render the "work only with Japanese advisors" aspects of the 21 Demands seem superfluous and unnecessary.

Additionally, a nominal declaration, not followed up by effective or notable military action, does not need to be are treated as top military or naval priority, certainly not a priority over dealing with Entente forces and targets in the region.

There would be a chance the Beijing Beiyang government would find a broad following for a DoW, motivated by 21 Demands. There's also a chance that the war could split the dueling extant Chinese regimes at the time, the southern Guangzhou regime of Sun Yat-sen, most recently of exile in Japan, might declare war on the Entente, and side against Yuan Shikai and with Japan and Germany.

Ha- I admit, I'd forgotten Dickson. Good rec.

I'll certainly admit that my post veered too far into this is what will happen. But for whatever reason, I have something of a sore spot on this site when it comes to people framing questions about foreign policy as if they're choices made in the moment, not decisions constrained by years- decades - of context. It normally comes out when people discover that Germany used to fund the KMT, and excitedly ask 'what if China joined the Axis?' to which the response is 'Every Great Power which didn't speak Japanese supported the KMT, it doesn't mean even the most fascist possible version of the Nanjing government is going to cut its own throat by declaring war on all the powers that control its supply routes.'

I think you could do a fascinating story where Germany, not Britain, is Japan's major Great Power ally. But the resulting circumstances are going to be so different that you'll have a very different situation when World War One breaks out. Which is not a criticism!

But my point is more broadly that the answer to any question which is 'What if country x spontaneously reverses all its foreign policy positions to take advantage of a short term crisis' is 'very bad things.'
 
Prediction: China's Beiyang government will stand aloof from this Japan and Germany versus Entente fight, and certainly at least wait to see which way the wind is blowing, before committing, and may never commit before matters are decided without China's input. Beiyang forces indeed may stand aside as pathetic witnesses to combat between Japanese and German (and tiny Austro-Hungarian) forces in Chinese ports and cities, fighting against British and French and Russians forces and legations in Chinese ports and cities.
I agree with this general idea since remember it was Duan Qirui of the pro-Japanese Anhui Clique who spearheaded China's involvement in the Entente in WWI. With a Central Powered Japan that changes the dynamics of Beiyang China and whatnot.
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
I'll certainly admit that my post veered too far into this is what will happen. But for whatever reason, I have something of a sore spot on this site when it comes to people framing questions about foreign policy as if they're choices made in the moment, not decisions constrained by years- decades - of context.
That's self-reflective, and I can totally understand why you would react like that. But sometimes I play along.

It normally comes out when people discover that Germany used to fund the KMT, and excitedly ask 'what if China joined the Axis?' to which the response is 'Every Great Power which didn't speak Japanese supported the KMT, it doesn't mean even the most fascist possible version of the Nanjing government is going to cut its own throat by declaring war on all the powers that control its supply routes.'
Oh yeah, people are "ga-ga" over this one, and it always irritates me too. My list of pet peeves and triggers has grown longer, and includes the presumption the USA is ready to go from 0-60 mph over the Lusitania sinking alone with no other context, the idea in any discussions of alternate French colonies during the age of discovery that "just sending Huguenots" is the "one weird trick" to make settlement succeed, and several other ideas.
 
Japan has no incentive to join the CP. Germany has some auxiliary cruisers in the region, some very isolated and mostly undefended islands ripe for the pickings. At most you might see something like Germany selling them or trading them to Japan, but that would have to be pre-war.

Why should Japan pay for when they can just take it? And alienate thier allies/primary trading partners. Landing a couple thousand troops on a few islands escorted by a dozen or so destroyers each is way cheaper than having to pay another country halfway around the world for them.
 
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