TL-191: Navy Blue and Gray - Naval Forces of the USA and CSA

[Sierra]

Any idea as to what might look like then, it really was a pre-dreadnought? What class would best fit the USS Dakota? Did 12 in. guns on a ship indicate it as a pre-dreadnought all the time?

Quite a few of the first generation dreadnoughts had twelve inch guns. I recall from the part with Pearl HArbor that the Dakota has a 3-2-2-3 arrangement of turrets. But i'm not sure about hte 12 in guns. I'll have to look again.

As for the Japanese, yes, decisive battle would be their primary doctrine, especially if the Russo-Japanese war still occurred, or if there was a fight between battleships when they occupied the Phillippines. AS for ships, the Kawachi, Fusou, and Kongou classes are all possibilities. Possibly even other ships. I Would wager the Japanese fleet would be larger and probably have some different designs than OTL, since the British would be depending on them, the Australians, and New Zealand to hold the Yankees down in the Pacific.

 

[Alterwright]

Maybe something like the Delaware class battleship U.S.S. North Dakota? She had 12 inch guns.

Oh! Well, that might do very nicely!

^^^ --- USS North Dakota (BB-29) - possible stand in for the USS Dakota for the Battle of the Three Navies.

And yes, it did have 12 in. guns on it, all arranged in the style you see above.

 

[Sierra]

Dakota, give the description, would probably look like this

USS Nevada.

 

[Alterwright]

Dakota, give the description, would probably look like this

USS Nevada.

Yup, that could work too. Another person suggested that the USS Dakota would look like a Delaware-class battleship, specifically the USS North Dakota (BB-29). But honestly as long as it has 12 in. guns and makes a big boom when it fires its armament I'm cool with it all.

 

[Sierra]

I suggested that because the description suggesting that it had ten guns arranged like Nevada. But, now that I think about it, it might not have said that. I'lll have to go back and look. Delaware might be just as valid.

 

[Alterwright]

I suggested that because the description suggesting that it had ten guns arranged like Nevada. But, now that I think about it, it might not have said that. I'lll have to go back and look. Delaware might be just as valid.

Its all good!

 

[Sierra]

So...yeah....its inconsistent. American Front says Dakota has 14in guns, with a "ten gun broadside", which says 3-2-2-3 configuration. But Breakthroughs mentioned it firing 12in guns. So...i'm going ot have to go with the first, more detailed description

 

[Alterwright]

Getting away from US battleships for a quick moment, I wanna speculate on the possible design of Confederate submarines! Specifically the CSS Bonefish. So if any one has any hints or notes on that please share them here.

Arguably the most active service of the Confederate Navy, the submarine force definitely had its work cut out for them. I got a few ideas for what the subs may have looked like during the Great War.

One recognizable feature was that the CSS Bonefish had a deck gun. I've been trying to find images of US or British submarines during WWI with deck guns, but I can't seem to find any, or find the right ones. I don't want to use a U-Boat as a reference here, especially since the Germans would be operating them in this time line.

 

[Alterwright]

So...yeah....its inconsistent. American Front says Dakota has 14in guns, with a "ten gun broadside", which says 3-2-2-3 configuration. But Breakthroughs mentioned it firing 12in guns. So...i'm going ot have to go with the first, more detailed description

It also matches the descriptions and reference images we've been using of the North Dakota and the Nevada. Both have the same gun arrangement on their decks. The New York has an entirely different set up.

 

[Alterwright]

Getting away from US battleships for a quick moment, I wanna speculate on the possible design of Confederate submarines! Specifically the CSS Bonefish. So if any one has any hints or notes on that please share them here.

Arguably the most active service of the Confederate Navy, the submarine force definitely had its work cut out for them. I got a few ideas for what the subs may have looked like during the Great War.

One recognizable feature was that the CSS Bonefish had a deck gun. I've been trying to find images of US or British submarines during WWI with deck guns, but I can't seem to find any, or find the right ones. I don't want to use a U-Boat as a reference here, especially since the Germans would be operating them in this time line.

^^^ --- Something like this, but again its a U-Boat. Would probably go for a British or US design that had room for a deck gun.

 

[Sierra]

Getting away from US battleships for a quick moment, I wanna speculate on the possible design of Confederate submarines! Specifically the CSS Bonefish. So if any one has any hints or notes on that please share them here.

Arguably the most active service of the Confederate Navy, the submarine force definitely had its work cut out for them. I got a few ideas for what the subs may have looked like during the Great War.

One recognizable feature was that the CSS Bonefish had a deck gun. I've been trying to find images of US or British submarines during WWI with deck guns, but I can't seem to find any, or find the right ones. I don't want to use a U-Boat as a reference here, especially since the Germans would be operating them in this time line.

It seems that most American and British submarines of the time that had deck guns had ones set up to retract or partially retract. More than a few of the later British designs, instead, seem to have placed the gun up on the forward edge of the sail, to have a better field of fire for engaging enemy submarines on the surface.

It also matches the descriptions and reference images we've been using of the North Dakota and the Nevada. Both have the same gun arrangement on their decks. The New York has an entirely different set up.

North Dakota is actually the same configuration as New York, just with 12in guns instead of 14in.

 

[Alterwright]

It seems that most American and British submarines of the time that had deck guns had ones set up to retract or partially retract. More than a few of the later British designs, instead, seem to have placed the gun up on the forward edge of the sail, to have a better field of fire for engaging enemy submarines on the surface.

Ah, that would explain why they're not visible on the decks then, unlike some of the German sub that didn't seem to have retractable deck guns. The feature on the British L-class subs seems pretty nifty. So it would be on the conning tower then? Would give it a better field of view and a little more protection for the crew.

Was the Bonefish mentioned to have a fixed deck gun or a retractable deck gun? Do you imagine it to be closer to an OTL American sub, British sub, some combination that would make it unique?

 

[Sierra]

Ah, that would explain why they're not visible on the decks then, unlike some of the German sub that didn't seem to have retractable deck guns. The feature on the British L-class subs seems pretty nifty. So it would be on the conning tower then? Would give it a better field of view and a little more protection for the crew.

Was the Bonefish mentioned to have a fixed deck gun or a retractable deck gun? Do you imagine it to be closer to an OTL American sub, British sub, some combination that would make it unique?

I would wager that the Confederate subs would be mostly British inspired. With a lot of torpedo only subs made to go after warships, since the Germans and Americans aren't really trading in the Atlantic. The US, I think, will have many more of its subs equipped with deck guns, since the primary job of the Alliance submarines is to interdict Entente trade.

 

[Alterwright]

I would wager that the Confederate subs would be mostly British inspired. With a lot of torpedo only subs made to go after warships, since the Germans and Americans aren't really trading in the Atlantic. The US, I think, will have many more of its subs equipped with deck guns, since the primary job of the Alliance submarines is to interdict Entente trade.

I see. There is also the added fact that there multiple types of submarines being built and deployed even during this war too. So we may also see American and Confederate subs with or without deck guns depending on the design choices made. Although I still like the idea of the Bonefish and her potential sister-subs being equipped with deck guns (retractable or not) I can also see some Confederate subs not being built with any deck guns either. The Bonefish was of course used for highly unusual missions that were not within its original design philosophy, such as being used on the rivers in the southern states to use its deck gun to shoot at black rebels during the Red Rebellion of 1915. I think more than any navy in this timeline the Confederates would be the ones using their ships in highly unorthodox ways.

It would make sense for the Americans and the Germans to retain deck guns for their operations in the intercepting Entente shipping in the Atlantic, yes. I feel as if American and German subs would take on a level of cooperation in that sense in regard to raiding Entente vessels, especially since the High Seas Fleet is constantly bottled up in the North Sea, unable to cooperate with the US's own surface fleet.

 

[cortz#9]

British K-Class submarine of WWI armed with four 18 in. torpedo tubes, one 3 in. (76mm) gun. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_K-class_submarine

 

[Alterwright]

British K-Class submarine of WWI armed with four 18 in. torpedo tubes, one 3 in. (76mm) gun. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_K-class_submarine

So, even the British got involved with putting big guns on subs! As early as WWI too! Looks neat! Reminds me of the Surcouf made by the French before WWII.

if there is one thing I find appealing about these subs, its how odd and experimental they all were. Everyone was trying to find out how to use these things properly. It was a time where things were not set in stone quite yet on how to use a sub.

I still think that the Confederates would make those cruiser-submarines --- ones like the Surcouf or in this case the K-Class. Kind of as a way to try and answer their numerical inferiority with ships that can "multi-task".

 

[cortz#9]

So, even the British got involved with putting big guns on subs! As early as WWI too! Looks neat! Reminds me of the Surcouf made by the French before WWII.

if there is one thing I find appealing about these subs, its how odd and experimental they all were. Everyone was trying to find out how to use these things properly. It was a time where things were not set in stone quite yet on how to use a sub.

I still think that the Confederates would make those cruiser-submarines --- ones like the Surcouf or in this case the K-Class. Kind of as a way to try and answer their numerical inferiority with ships that can "multi-task".

According to the Wiki, the K-class wasn't a dependable design, several were lost to accidents. I think one of the reasons German U-boats were successful was that the designs were very simple compared to the Brits and French, one of the few times the Germans used the KISS principal.

 

[Alterwright]

According to the Wiki, the K-class wasn't a dependable design, several were lost to accidents. I think one of the reasons German U-boats were successful was that the designs were very simple compared to the Brits and French, one of the few times the Germans used the KISS principal.

KISS principle? What's that?

 

[cortz#9]

KISS principle? What's that?

Keep It Simple Stupid.

 

[Alterwright]

Keep It Simple Stupid.

Oh