TL-191 Fridge Logic thread:

Probably the case.

IIRC, the Confederate Army in the parts of Ohio, Indiana, and Pennsylvania it occupied treated U.S. blacks not much worse than they treated U.S. whites -- probably amounting to normal OTL 1940s level of discrimination. Pinkard seemed to be speaking for his countrymen when he said his countrymen had no beef with U.S. blacks.* Hardly sounds like a global vision on Featherston's part, so naturally it wouldn't make sense to annihilate other countries' blacks.

*I have a very vague recollection of one of the characters claiming the Confederate Army was actually treating U.S. blacks worse than the Freedom Party was doing down south. I won't swear by it, I can't even remember which book or part of the book I saw it in, but I do remember having a "what the fuck?" moment.

Well, given the policy of the OTL Confederate army toward blacks who were actually in the ranks of the Union army that's hardly any different. If anything it's surprising that the ATL Confederate army behaves so much better than the Freedom Party. Given the repeated emphasis on Freedom Party influence like with the Wehrmacht and the SS there should be more similarity than difference.
 
Not every soldier in the German army during WW2 was a genocidal maniac concerning Jews but still racist. One could use similar logic with the Confederate army and their relationship with blacks.
 
Not every soldier in the German army during WW2 was a genocidal maniac concerning Jews but still racist. One could use similar logic with the Confederate army and their relationship with blacks.

No, but given the OTL German army had a Commissar Order and the OTL Confederacy *also* authorized execution of USCT officers and enlisted men not enslaved.......
 
Back on the topic on whether the British were total bastards to the Irish, I found this quote from In at the Death, page 49, when Featherston is meeting with Lord Halifax (same POV as Halifax mentioning the population reductions but not quite the same topic area):

Ireland was under British control now, to keep the USA from using it as a forward base, but military occupation had a whole different set of rules. The limeys weren't as tough on the micks as the Freedom Party was on Confederate Negroes, but they didn't take any crap, either.
 
Back on the topic on whether the British were total bastards to the Irish, I found this quote from In at the Death, page 49, when Featherston is meeting with Lord Halifax (same POV as Halifax mentioning the population reductions but not quite the same topic area):

Ireland was under British control now, to keep the USA from using it as a forward base, but military occupation had a whole different set of rules. The limeys weren't as tough on the micks as the Freedom Party was on Confederate Negroes, but they didn't take any crap, either.

What that probably meant it was very much like the US occupation of Canada. A lot of areas of Ireland were over 90% Catholic with most of the Protestants lived in Ulster.
 
Would this be the place where I ask why a Jewish author turned one of the most philo-Semitic organizations in the U.S. into a Hamas lookalike?
 
Would this be the place where I ask why a Jewish author turned one of the most philo-Semitic organizations in the U.S. into a Hamas lookalike?

Probably the same reason he turned a Jewish man into the Dollar Tree Goebbels: he likes playing on people's preconceptions.
 
True, but mostly that was towards the end of the war and in the chaos and confusion and frustration he may not have been the only one. Weird, there was a post by Trotsky I was referring to but it's not there anymore. huh.
 
Best quote of this entire thread!
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True, but mostly that was towards the end of the war and in the chaos and confusion and frustration he may not have been the only one. Weird, there was a post by Trotsky I was referring to but it's not there anymore. huh.

Weird, huh.

stalin.jpg
 
Oh shit of course. That brings me to a question I always wonderred about (I am not what you would call an expert on American history)...

Does the mormon situation have any analogue in OTL? or is there any history of mormon rebellion in OTL?

The extent of my knowledge of mormons (apart from those in this country) comes from "big love" :)
 
Oh shit of course. That brings me to a question I always wonderred about (I am not what you would call an expert on American history)...

Does the mormon situation have any analogue in OTL? or is there any history of mormon rebellion in OTL?

Well, the 1857 Utah War for starters. Growing pains while moving from the Midwest to the West before then.
 
Well, the 1857 Utah War for starters. Growing pains while moving from the Midwest to the West before then.

Ok I know nothing about that, that's one for me to look up

It was basically President James Buchanan hearing some unconfirmed rumor about what Mormons were doing in the Utah territory, overreacting and sending the federal army to crush a non-existent rebellion, and the Mormons panicking and trying to sabotage the approaching armies supply lines. It was also refured to as Buchanan's Blunder, as sending the army off to fight a rebellion that hasn't started yet reflects badly on ones party.
 
I figured out something. Given the recent releases from Soviet archives have actually changed views of the Axis-Soviet War to include Soviet POVs more fairly in proportion to those of the Axis, there's a lot more parallels with OTL WWII than OTL Civil War. Even in the later version. First the Richmond Agreement is more of a Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact in that it defines clearly US and CS spheres of influence in regions with minorities the CSA is very bent on exterminating even at that time.

Second, the US Army is undergunned and taken by complete surprise on June 22nd, 1941 and outmaneuvered quickly, with Confederate expectations like those of the Germans for an immediate US surrender as the Germans expected the USSR to fall apart following their victories. The USA like the USSR is the more populous and richer of the two countries, the victory expected from the immediate grand tactical victories does not follow as expected. Like the USSR WRT Jews the great majority of US soldiers are nowhere near as racist toward blacks as Confederates are, but blacks don't have the easiest time of it in the USA.

The first US counterattacks led by Zhukov/Morrell backfire unpleasantly, the larger-scale counterattacks are predicted by the Confederates and flounder where they reasonably shouldn't. Richmond in this sense may resemble more Leningrad than anywhere else. To knock the USA out the Confederates try to eliminate its major industrial center, increasing dependence on their allies and increasing manpower weaknesses handicapping them. Morrell extorts out of the General Staff/US government full backing for Operation Rosebud/Uranus which encircles the CS Army in Pittsburg which surrenders in early in 1943.

The Mormons surrender, Canada rises. This is akin to the lower-level troubles the USSR had from some opportunistic subjects of the Soviet state, while Canada to some extent is like Ukraine (large, hard for the USA to control entirely, both arising from a common root). The USA clears its territory of Confederates in cleverly-executed hammerblow offensives (akin to the Soviet victories in late 1943/early 1944). It uses Maskirovka to start victories that dramatically attenuate Confederate military power in the sense that the Soviet strikes in the Balkans and in the North gutted Axis military power through late 1943/4. The discovery of Determination is like the discovery of Majdanek and Sobibor.

Despite desperate, bitter resistance the war is already lost and the death of the dictator virtually ends the conflict, with the USA creating another satellite state in Texas to match its one up north in Quebec. Thus the counterattacks in Tennessee are akin to the German counteroffensives in late 1943, the US skill with deception tactics parallels the Soviets' increasing adeptness, the capture of Chattanooga is really Bagration (tears the heart out of Confederate military power) that of Atlanta Budapest (the end of German military reserves just like Atlanta is such for the Confederacy. Lavochkin's Looters could even be analogous to Soviet war crimes committed against the Germans by the victorious Red Army.

While the Sherman parallel is an obvious one, so could it be a parallel to the Soviet strikes in the Balkans that went a good way to winning the Great Patriotic War for them. Resemblances to the US Civil War would be such because marching to Savannah is an obvious psychological ploy. :D

I don't know if this makes TL-191 better or even more derivative. :eek:
 
I thought it was pretty well established that TL-191's USA is the USSR to the CSA's Nazi Germany, which is why I'd always imagine a cold war arising between the European CPs and the USA after Japan is dealt with.
 
I thought it was pretty well established that TL-191's USA is the USSR to the CSA's Nazi Germany, which is why I'd always imagine a cold war arising between the European CPs and the USA after Japan is dealt with.

The usual idea was that it was the USSR from 1941-2 and the Union in the Civil War from the invasion of Kentucky onward. I just figured out that perhaps it was the USSR all the way through and Morrell's resemblance to Sherman is accidental. Which is why I said I don't know if that improves TL-191 or makes it instead more derivative. Morrell is supposed to be like Rommel but his career actually looks more like Marshal Zhukov's. It would mean that the expanded US control of Canada and the ex-Confederacy is akin to Soviet rule of the Warsaw Pact. :eek:
 
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