Spain's revolution succeeds (c18/c19)

[Sam R.]

I'm predominantly a c20 historian of labour history, and as a result incidentally of world-systems / imperialism. But Imperialism as a world-system chains back before the 20th century, and Sharpe's Rifles' episode one inspired this thought, as the two brother fight over Spain. Spain did have a liberal-imperialist revolution, in part due to the French revolution extensifying. But this wasn't limited to European Spain. As Britain took great delight after the French Revolutionary/Imperial wars on the continent, Britain spread Spain's revolution to the peripheral world system of Spain in the Americas. (Much as England's revolution extensified over time not only in Britain, but in the English Americas…). So there is an indigenous liberal / revolutionary impulse in the Spanish world system. CLR James famously noted in Black Jacobins that there was a peripheral English revolution in the periphery of the English world-system (Federici follows this in Caliban and the Witch, and industrial history of machines and peripheral machinists / factory systems creators who weren't English in the English periphery reemphasises this with Mill invention). So there is an indigenous capacity for revolution in Spain in the metropole and the periphery.

England and Britain may have had political reasons to defeat the revolution in metropolitan Spain and support it in peripheral Spain. But, what if the Spanish revolution had succeeded? This may not be the "absolute" success of the French revolution from 1789-19xx; nor the qualified ones of the English (16xx-Peterloo), or Dutch.

But, what if a success? Obviously it'll be ugly: revolutions are. Wat Tyler ends up in Methody. History repeats: first 1793, then the tragedy of Napoleon I, then the farce of Napoleon III.

But what themes and intellectual or economic crises would a Spain where the indigenous currents that pre-figured Bonapartist Spain that were underexplored in blood and thought and crisis and home and production and Colonial rebellion and labouring-class rebellion were explored in the terms of Spain's own revolution, not Frances?

Obviously I'm really awfully underread here. But Sharpe of all things presents Reason versus Old-Order as a true topic, and so I suspect that cultural artifact presents something more important than just men in tight trousers. Ignorant as I am I expect fully correction by those better read than me: but, the c19 collapse of the Spanish world-system of imperialism indicates that there is a real crisis in the social and cultural reproduction of the underlying economic order, and the mid-wife of history sees a true crowning, rather than our historical breech birth?

yours, dumb as he is,
Sam R.

 

[unprincipled peter]

But what themes and intellectual or economic crises would a Spain where the indigenous currents that pre-figured Bonapartist Spain that were underexplored in blood and thought and crisis and home and production and Colonial rebellion and labouring-class rebellion were explored in the terms of Spain's own revolution, not Frances?

Are you asking WI a Spanish Revolution instead of a French one in late 1700s? Or alongside the FR?

Carlos III had some tense times after the 7 Y W. You could turn this into a revolution that would precede the FR. Louis XV isn't all that well liked in the time frame. I think at least one attempt on his life. France could catch revolutionary fever, but just as likely the French gov't/elites take note and actively work to suppress such fever in both countries. Suppression of an earlier FR butterflies OTL FR.



IF you butterfly OTL FR, the effects are going to dwarf the effect of a SR, especially when Spanish empire likely ends up broken up in either OTL or TTL, and Spain doesn't have the capacity to cause the cataclysm of the FR/Nap Wars.

A Spanish Revolution concurrent with the OTL FR would just add a different complexity to the Nap Wars. It won't introduce any new winds of change, but the swirling of the winds will be different.

Overall, unless the SR allows for the success of FR/Nap Wars, Spain and the empire ends in similar condition. Spain was in decline, and I don't think a revolution is going to dramatically reverse that.

 

[Sam R.]

Are you asking WI a Spanish Revolution instead of a French one in late 1700s? Or alongside the FR?

Either situation, but where Spain (including the across the oceans economic periphery) fully explores the themes emergent in the Spanish economy/society of the Spanish revolutionary impulses themselves. If there's a French revolution it can't over-determine themes arising inside the Spanish revolution. Consider the c20 example of the Russian and German revolutions. Whenever we discuss a c20 successful German revolution, the themes around the KAPD / AAUD immediately dwarf the themes of the later Bolshevik inspired KPD—unleashing a c20 German revolution produces a German revolution, not a Russian themed German Revolution.

So correspondingly if there's a French revolution and a Spanish revolution, the requirement here is that the Spanish revolution genuinely explores the themes of the Spanish revolution emergent from the social and economic contradictions of Spain, rather than importing Bonepartist redactions of the French revolution.

Overall, unless the SR allows for the success of FR/Nap Wars, Spain and the empire ends in similar condition. Spain was in decline, and I don't think a revolution is going to dramatically reverse that.

It doesn't matter if Spain moves out of economic decline or succeeds, more than that the Revolution "fulfills" its destiny. Consider that the English Colonies in the Americas went through a period of recessive economic decline after their fulfillment of the English revolution, or that the Russian economy collapsed without the French/serf semi-peripheral relationship: the RSFSR and USSR were economically deficient compared to Imperial Russia's position in the French economic world-system.

The aim isn't Spain glorious and potent; but, Spain experiencing its own crises fully on the terms of its own crises in a revolutionary mould?

The Navy / Shop Stewards / Independent Socialists / KAPD / AAUD of the German revolution (and for that matter the German "whites" and proto-"browns") of the German revolution brought forth Germany's own crises partly. They weren't an attempt by an intellectual party at the head of "young" factory movements to seize a winter palace.

yours,
Sam R.

 

[unprincipled peter]

First, you have to define what a Spanish Revolution is that is so different from the French Revolution. Is that the nature of your question? I can't help you there, as I'm not versed enough in idealistic Spanish politics.

In OTL, on the eve of the FR, Spain was looking to modernize/liberalize according to the ideals of the enlightenment. The French dove off the deep end, radicalizing their version of the enlightenment, which caused a counter reaction in Spain as the Spanish gov't/elite sought to shut down liberal ideas that might lead to revolution in Spain. Beyond that, I don't know enough to say whether Spanish and French Enlightenments were radically different enough that a Spanish Revolution is going to be a completely different beast.

Second is how such a different revolution affects the Spanish Empire and the world. In OTL, Spain was torn apart domestically in the Iberian War, and subsequently lost the colonial sphere to independence movements (aided by the British). In TTL, revolution tears apart Spain domestically, and, IMO, the colonial sphere still tears away from the metropole (If you massively disrupt the economic ties, the political bond is broken, too). So, in either case, the Spanish Empire is left a mess.

How does the Spanish Revolution get along with the French Revolution? IF they are sisters, they'll cooperate to a much greater extent than the OTL Spain/France alliance. Britain will get more aggressive in separating the Spanish colonies. OTL, while the viceroyalties were kept separate from Bonapartist Spain, Britain didn't really look to destroy the empire until AFTER the European conflict was over and the Bourbons restored. In the early years, Bourbon Spain was a reluctant minimal ally of Revolutionary/Nap France, so Britain didn't look to be too aggressive. Later, after Nap invaded Spain, the viceroyalties were part of Bourbon Spain, now a full fledged ally of Britain. TTL, with Spain a hotbed of revolution, Britain can be more focused on destroying the empire.

On the other hand, IF the Spanish and French revolutions aren't compatible, France will look to destroy Spain, lest the alternate revolution threaten the French one. Britain can't back revolutionary Spain against France. They can back any remnants of Bourbon Monarchy in Spain, or pretend to enough to send enough aid to Spain to create a mess for Nap.

Timing matters, too. A Spanish Revolution instead of, or preceding, the FR is a totally different world than a SR/FR side by side. A SR after the Nap Wars conclude can be a recognizable point to start from, but I think the viceroyalties are lost, and I think the European effects are more subtle than OTL FR, but beyond that, I'm not qualified to discuss.

I would suggest refining your WI. Right now it's too generic, and there's really no point to start from. When is SR? What is SR (this will vary depending on the time frame)? Asking 'WI Spain had a revolution sometime over the course of 2 centuries?' is not really a fleshed out topic.

 

[Tupolev0247]

Depending on how this revolution develops, I can imagine the empire splitting apart rather than collapsing altogether.

 

[raharris1973]

CLR James famously noted in Black Jacobins that there was a peripheral English revolution in the periphery of the English world-system (Federici follows this in Caliban and the Witch, and industrial history of machines and peripheral machinists / factory systems creators who weren't English in the English periphery reemphasises this with Mill invention).

Hopefully they weren't making a mountain out of a molehill about the alleged Jamaican metallurgists's unique contributions. There's little proof behind the journal article's claims unique metallurgical techniques from the Jamaican smiths that went into global ironmongery.

 

[Sam R.]

Hopefully they weren't making a mountain out of a molehill about the alleged Jamaican metallurgists's unique contributions. There's little proof behind the journal article's claims unique metallurgical techniques from the Jamaican smiths that went into global ironmongery.

I was really surprised it didn’t cite CLR James or Federici. Especially when it’s claim that proletarian innovation was central to mechanisation. In any case both the liberal Spanish peripheral revolutions and the case studies of the English periphery give me cause to believe that proletarian or protoproletarian culture existed in the Spanish periphery. I’ll come back after reading more wiki.

 

[Tanaka did nothing wrong]

Well, I am confused by the original post to some extent. Does it mean a successful bourgeois revolution in Spain/ a revolution similar to the one in France?